Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range

[randomBytes]

Yes, someone travelling on a passport eligible for a waiver of a vise requirement and visiting for 90 days or less for the purposes of business or pleasure is probably qualified for the Visa Waiver Program and therefore should be able to lawfully have temporary possession of a gun or ammunition.

Which would perhaps explain why some have reported no problem taking visitors shooting.

[fiddletown]

Which would perhaps explain why some have reported no problem taking visitors shooting.

Yes, when the visitor is from a participating country and here for less than 90 days, and therefore is not here on a visa.

Note, however, that the title of this thread is (emphasis added), "Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range." So the exception for persons here under the Visa Waiver Program would not apply to the persons described in the title of this thread.

And often visitors here on some form of longer term working visa or student visa who are interested in shooting get hunting licenses to bypass the 18 USC 922(g)(5) disability.

On the other hand:

• There are a lot of visitors here who aren't from countries participating under Visa Waiver Program.
  
  
• There are a lot of visitors here who are here for more than 90 days and therefore must be here on some form of nonimmigrant visa.
  
  
• There are no doubt a lot of visitors here on some form of nonimmigrant visa who don't have hunting licenses.

[FourT6and2]

Yes, when the visitor is from a participating country and here for less than 90 days, and therefore is not here on a visa.

Note, however, that the title of this thread is (emphasis added), "Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range." So the exception for persons here under the Visa Waiver Program would not apply to the persons described in the title of this thread.

And often visitors here on some form of longer term working visa or student visa who are interested in shooting get hunting licenses to bypass the 18 USC 922(g)(5) disability.

On the other hand:

• There are a lot of visitors here who aren't from countries participating under Visa Waiver Program.
  
  
• There are a lot of visitors here who are here for more than 90 days and therefore must be here on some form of nonimmigrant visa.
  
  
• There are no doubt a lot of visitors here on some form of nonimmigrant visa who don't have hunting licenses.

Either way, a shooting range isn't going to know what type of visa someone has or even if they have a visa. Ranges ask for ID and that's it. If a foreigner shows a passport, the range staff says ok. I'm not commenting on the nature of the law and whether that is legal or not. Just that "the reason some people don't have any problems" is because no shooting range in the country is going to ask someone if they are a non-immigrant with or without a visa or what the status of their stay in the country is. There's a line out the door and the dude at the counter wants to go have a smoke. You got $20 for a range lane and ID? Yes? good, go for it. No? Well go bowling instead or something.

[Mayor McRifle]

Passports work at my two local ranges (indoor and outdoor) for foreign visitors/vacationers.

[fiddletown]

....I'm not commenting on the nature of the law and whether that is legal or not. Just that "the reason some people don't have any problems" is because no shooting range in the country is going to ask someone if they are a non-immigrant with or without a visa or what the status of their stay in the country is.....

Passports work at my two local ranges (indoor and outdoor) for foreign visitors/vacationers.

But the law still is what it is. Getting away with something doesn't make it legal. Getting away with something works fine until you don't get away with it. That's the risk anyone takes when he violates the law, and it only works out until it doesn't work out any more. And if it doesn't work out one time, that can cost up to ten years in a federal prison and up to a $250,000.00 fine.

People get away with crimes all the time/. The cops all know who the hookers are and where they're working. Cops all know where drugs are being sold. There are all kinds of illegal activities going on that the police pretty well know are going on, and for various reasons they aren't vigorously pursuing prosecuting them. But sometimes they do, and they can whenever they want.

I'm just making sure folks understand what the law is. If you want to take your chances, that's fine with me. I have no reason to care what happens to you.

[Jimi Jah]

Are these ranges that allow someone with a passport ID to shoot under threat of closure or criminal violation? Do their lawyers inform them of this risk to their business?

Seems that would end that practice on day one. Who wants to risk their business for a few foreigners? (Vegas is excepted because it's well, Vegas).

[BAJ475]

Passports work at my two local ranges (indoor and outdoor) for foreign visitors/vacationers.

As has been noted, a passport from visa waiver country takes them out of the prohibited category while a passport from other countries would not. The question is whether your two local ranges know what countries are on the waiver list and are only accepting passports from those countries.

[fiddletown]

Are these ranges that allow someone with a passport ID to shoot under threat of closure or criminal violation?...

If the Department of Justice (which includes the FBI and ATF) is interested in prosecuting such violations and is therefore willing to put the necessary investigative effort into finding sufficient evidence to prove that a range has rented guns to someone who the range had reasonable cause to believe is a prohibited person, yes, the range is at risk.

...Do their lawyers inform them of this risk to their business?...

I have no idea what their lawyers tell them. If I were a range's lawyer, I would explain the law to the range management.

...Seems that would end that practice on day one. Who wants to risk their business for a few foreigners? (Vegas is excepted because it's well, Vegas).

In over thirty years of practicing law I've seen all sorts of businesses knowingly take all sorts of often serious legal risks to make a few extra bucks. I've seen taking those risks to occasionally pay off, and I've seen taking those risks to backfire badly.

[CCWFacts]

Note, however, that the title of this thread is (emphasis added), "Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range." So the exception for persons here under the Visa Waiver Program would not apply to the persons described in the title of this thread.

Yeah but I think the point of this thread is, what's the situation with foreigners going to the range? Most of us don't think deeply about subjects like the VWP and so on and we see foreigners at the range and are wondering what the rules are.

From what I have learned in this thread, here are examples which illustrate the rules:

• Hans from Germany (a VWP country) is here as a tourist for two weeks. He doesn't need a visa and doesn't have one. He's in status in every way (he hasn't overstayed or anything). YES, he can shoot
• Robert from the UK (a VWP country) is here to do paid musical performances for two weeks. Even though he's here from a VWP country, he got a P-2 (performers visa, a non-immigrant type of visa) to come here and perform. NO he cannot shoot, unless he gets a hunting license
• Marina is here from Ukraine on a tourist visa. NO she cannot shoot unless she gets a hunting license
• Jose is here from Mexico on a greencard. YES he can shoot because it's an immigrant visa
• Satoshi is here from Japan, which is in the VWP. He overstayed 90 days and is out of status, even though he entered legally. NO he cannot shoot, even if he does have a hunting license
• John is here from Ireland on a student visa or H-1B visa (long-term but non-immigrant visas). NO he cannot shoot without a hunting permit, because student visas are non-immigrant visas, even if he is staying here long-term

By "cannot shoot" I mean, "is a prohibited person", with the same restrictions as a convicted felon.

Is this an accurate summary of the situation? This makes sense because Japanese tourists would have no problem going to the range. Obviously range employees don't know / don't care about these nuances, and let people with passports shoot, because they don't want to spend 20 minutes doing an inquiry into the guy's status. The safest thing for them to do would be to require non-citizens to go to their website and fill in a web form that asks a series of yes-no questions to figure out their status, and complete that and register before they come to the range.

As we know, gun store and range employees tend to be ignorant of the gun laws.

[fiddletown]

....From what I have learned in this thread, here are examples which illustrate the rules:

• Hans from Germany (a VWP country) is here as a tourist for two weeks. He doesn't need a visa and doesn't have one. He's in status in every way (he hasn't overstayed or anything). YES, he can shoot
• Robert from the UK (a VWP country) is here to do paid musical performances for two weeks. Even though he's here from a VWP country, he got a P-2 (performers visa, a non-immigrant type of visa) to come here and perform. NO he cannot shoot, unless he gets a hunting license
• Marina is here from Ukraine on a tourist visa. NO she cannot shoot unless she gets a hunting license
• Jose is here from Mexico on a greencard. YES he can shoot because it's an immigrant visa
• Satoshi is here from Japan, which is in the VWP. He overstayed 90 days and is out of status, even though he entered legally. NO he cannot shoot, even if he does have a hunting license
• John is here from Ireland on a student visa or H-1B visa (long-term but non-immigrant visas). NO he cannot shoot without a hunting permit, because student visas are non-immigrant visas, even if he is staying here long-term

By "cannot shoot" I mean, "is a prohibited person", with the same restrictions as a convicted felon.

Is this an accurate summary of the situation? ...

Very good, and yes, I think that's an accurate summary.

[CCWFacts]

Then it's no surprise that there are tour groups of Japanese and Taiwanese tourists, but no PRC tourists at the range. It also makes sense why ranges allow any and all foreign passports. They can always say, "we had no idea what kind of visa or hunting permit they had". This leaves people from non-VWP countries, or people from VWP countries but who have non-immigrant visas, in a bad situation, because no one is telling them that they are prohibited persons. They (not unreasonably) assume that if the range accepts their ID and they sign the forms, they're good to go. But that is not true at all. Lucky for them, prosecutorial discretion, but that doesn't make it legal, or a good decision.

Definitely ranges should have a web signup form for non-citizens to complete before they even walk into the range, to go through some yes-no questions to make sure they are not at risk.

[Jimi Jah]

At least they should have a list of countries that don't require a visa to come here. Then the RO can check that against the allowed countries at check in. Seems a reasonable amount of checking to prevent ATF shutdowns.

[CCWFacts]

At least they should have a list of countries that don't require a visa to come here. Then the RO can check that against the allowed countries at check in. Seems a reasonable amount of checking to prevent ATF shutdowns.

NO THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

That only is true for the 38 countries on the VWP, for people who are here as tourists and have not otherwise violated the terms of their status.

I assume there are hundreds of thousands of people from VWP countries who are here on non-immigrant visas. That includes students, H-1B workers, people doing paid musical performances, journalists, consular staff and many many more. "I'm from a VWP country so I'm ok to shoot" is not true at all.

If the RO wants to keep it simple and cover things reasonably well he should ask this flowchart style questionnaire:

1. Are you a prohibited person? If yes, can't shoot
2. Are you a citizen? you're good to go
3. Are you out of status in any way? If yes, can't shoot
4. Are you here without a visa? If yes, good to go
5. Are you here on a greencard? If yes, good to go
6. You are here on a non-immigrant visa. If you have a hunting permit, or some other very unusual exceptions, good to go
7. Otherwise, can't shoot

[cdtx2001]

If it's illegal to allow a foreign national to shoot a gun, how is it that the indoor ranges in Hawaii are allowed to rent guns to Japanese tourists?

[fiddletown]

If it's illegal to allow a foreign national to shoot a gun, how is it that the indoor ranges in Hawaii are allowed to rent guns to Japanese tourists?

Why don't you try actually reading the thread?