Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range

[reverser]

If they are here on a work visa they can get a social security number to pay taxes and a driver's license. I don't recall ever seeing a range ask someone with a California driver's license if they're a citizen. I've brought numerous people from Europe to ranges all around the Bay Area and not had a single issue. I mean, you don't walk in and shout "hey, I have a non-citizen and I was wondering if I'm breaking a law", do you? I can assure you, if you walk up to a clerk at a range and say "I have a popsicle stick in my pocket, it might be illegal" they will tell you that you're not allowed to shoot there. Try it.

[fiddletown]

...I don't recall ever seeing a range ask someone with a California driver's license if they're a citizen. I've brought numerous people from Europe to ranges all around the Bay Area and not had a single issue. I mean, you don't walk in and shout "hey, I have a non-citizen and I was wondering if I'm breaking a law", do you?....

So what?

The law is what it is. If someone has been doing things which are illegal and hasn't gotten into trouble, it doesn't change what the law is. It only means he hasn't been caught yet. And that's no guarantee that he won't be caught and prosecuted in the future.

There's a difference between committing a crime and getting away with it and doing the legal thing. Whenever someone commits a crime he is betting his freedom, fortune, and future on not getting caught. And people who commit crimes often wind up getting caught in unexpected ways. The prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught.

If someone understands what the law is and chooses to violate it anyway, getting caught will be his problem and his family's problem. But at least it won't be my problem.

Also, prosecutors are pretty free to decide when and if to prosecute a violation of the law. They can decide not to prosecute for pretty much any reason. It's called "prosecutorial discretion."

The key word there is "discretion." It's entirely up to the prosecutor, and it can be exercised, at his discretion, on a case-by-case basis. So the fact that a federal prosecutor has decided not to pursue charges against the last 50,000 Iraqi tourists shooting machine guns at a Las Vegas range doesn't prevent him from charging you and your buddy visiting from India when you show him and let him handle your new Smith & Wesson 686.

And lack of enforcement didn't stop federal prosecutors from bringing charges against a couple of guys from Saudi Arabia for renting guns in San Diego County.

[reverser]

I never said that I break the law. I've just never had anyone ask for anything more than ID and to fill out the waiver. FWIW, hunting licenses aren't exactly rocket science. The law is pretty clear.

So what?

[fiddletown]

I never said that I break the law.....

Well, you wrote what you wrote, and one of the things you wrote was:

....I've brought numerous people from Europe to ranges all around the Bay Area and not had a single issue.....

If any of those visitors were here on a nonimmigrant visa, and if they shot or handled guns at the range, it sure looks like you did break the law -- by aiding and abetting the unlawful possession of a gun or ammunition by a person disqualified therefrom under 18 USC 922(g)(3).

[reverser]

I said that I haven't had a single issue, which meant I haven't had any range staffers waving fingers at me or asking for huge amounts of documentation and booting me out. I'll agree that based on the context my statement wasn't perfectly clear.

Since when is it against the law to bring someone with an out of state apprentice hunting license? Right, it isn't. This has been covered in the past. There are posts on this going back as far as 2009. Every once in a while someone asks about it and this same argument comes up.

Well, you wrote what you wrote

[fiddletown]

I said that I haven't had a single issue, which meant I haven't had any range staffers waving fingers at me or asking for huge amounts of documentation and booting me out....

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether by taking foreign visitors, if they were here on nonimmigrant visas, to a range to shoot violated federal law by aiding and abetting their violation of 18 USC 922(g)(3) by being prohibited persons in possession of guns or ammunition.

...Since when is it against the law to bring someone with an out of state apprentice hunting license?...

You said nothing about your visitors having hunting licenses, and it seems rather convenient that you recall that now.

You might want to stop posting in this thread, and perhaps delete your prior posts, before you embarrass yourself further.

....Every once in a while someone asks about it and this same argument comes up.

Because, it seems, that a lot of folks just don't want to believe that the law is what it is.

[CCWFacts]

Thanks for the clear information on this. I'm never again going to take a tourist or non-resident alien shooting or allow them access to guns without getting them a hunting permit first. This seems clear. I'm not going to hang my own clear record, or someone else's clear record, on prosecutorial discretion, even if the chances of problems are very remote. Why take any chance when they can just spend the $100 to get a PA non-res hunting permit.

[reverser]

I don't feel embarrassed at all, thanks. I didn't realize that I had to state that I was there legally with my clients. If I said I drove to the store today, would you assume I did so illegally because I may not have a driver's license? Come on now. This topic has been beaten to death here and the hunting license is the oldest trick in the book. It's not convenient, it is cheap insurance. I was simply trying to point out to the guy that range staff don't harass you unless you give them a reason. Thanks for making me write a freakin novel.

This isn't adding to the thread and is just bickering at this point. I'll stay off your lawn now.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether by taking foreign visitors, if they were here on nonimmigrant visas, to a range to shoot violated federal law by aiding and abetting their violation of 18 USC 922(g)(3) by being prohibited persons in possession of guns or ammunition.

You said nothing about your visitors having hunting licenses, and it seems rather convenient that you recall that now.

You might want to stop posting in this thread, and perhaps delete your prior posts, before you embarrass yourself further.

Because, it seems, that a lot of folks just don't want to believe that the law is what it is.

[BAJ475]

If I understand correctly there is a way for a person on a non immigrant visa to get authorization to lawfully posses and fire firearms through the US Dept. of Justice (AG). Is anyone familiar with this process?

[fiddletown]

If I understand correctly there is a way for a person on a non immigrant visa to get authorization to lawfully posses and fire firearms through the US Dept. of Justice (AG). Is anyone familiar with this process?

A process through the State Department is alluded to in 18 USC 922(y)(2)(C), but I haven't looked into the details.

[BAJ475]

A process through the State Department is alluded to in 18 USC 922(y)(2)(C), but I haven't looked into the details.

Thank you for your reply. I will explore this.

[Jimi Jah]

So those Las Vegas machine gun renting ranges that have bus loads of Asian tourists lining up daily to blast away all get instant ATF waivers?

Guess we won't get any answers like the Mandalay Bay shooting?

[pilotguy]

I wonder if someone from a Visa Waiver country be ok? They are not required to obtain a no immigrant visa. I ask because I have relatives from Germany that like go to the range when they visit. I am also aware that an answer here would be advisory at best.

[reverser]

I’ll just leave this here. See Q5. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...nspdf/download

[fiddletown]

I wonder if someone from a Visa Waiver country be ok?....

Yes, someone travelling on a passport eligible for a waiver of a vise requirement and visiting for 90 days or less for the purposes of business or pleasure is probably qualified for the Visa Waiver Program and therefore should be able to lawfully have temporary possession of a gun or ammunition.

The allows a foreign national from one of a number of participating countries to enter the United States for a limited period of time, and for certain purposes, without a visa.

ATF (see Q5 and Q6) has decided that lawfully entering the United States as a non-immigrant when permitted without a visa is not the same as entering with a non-immigrant visa, and therefore such a non-resident alien in not subject to the 18 USC 922(g)(5) prohibition. It looks like this ATF interpretation was made around 2012.

The Visa Waiver Program applies to visitor from most European countries, several Asian countries, and one South American country. It doesn't include any Middle Eastern or African countries. The requirements for a visa are waived only for visits for business or pleasure not to exceed 90 days.