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MERGED THREADS "Bullet Button Assault Weapon" Regs

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  • edwardm
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2005
    • 1939

    Originally posted by Fox Mulder
    Sooooooo changing the configuration (bullet button) post 1/1/17 somehow affects if it was lawfully configured and possessed prior to 1/1/17?

    Please explain. I am unclear on time travel, and how you are applying it to this situation.
    OK, let me pick apart the stupidity, and see if I can help, without being another "yes man" 'lawyer' for The State.

    The quoted bits below are all FGG's words, FWIW.

    Yes, I think it's 100% unwinnable. What you'd effectively be asking the court to do is re-open registration for a previously banned AR configuration and that would be the framework for any interpretation the court would do. I think you'd need a much more compelling textual basis than the "well it's defined as an AW now so it doesn't matter if it has a BB or a standard mag release" argument, again IMO.
    Except that the textual basis is found in statute, today, as amended by SB-880 and AB-1135, neither of which contemplate a static configuration. Those bills did two major (and many minor) things:

    1) They redefined an AW-by-features, to include the "BB" feature as forbidden.
    2) They compelled CalDOJ to open registration and to make regulations. That
    is, taken from AB-1135:

    (5) The department shall adopt regulations for the purpose of implementing this subdivision. These regulations are exempt from the Administrative Procedure Act (Chapter 3.5 (commencing with Section 11340) of Part 1 of Division 3 of Title 2 of the Government Code).
    Underline mine.

    The "purpose" of implementing the relevant subdivision is to register certain firearms as assault weapons. The purpose of same is not to create static configurations, nor to open a registration period for pre-2001 AW's that were hidden away in closets. CalDOJ knows this, and ignores this.

    DOJ is empowered to make regulations to implement the bullet button firearm ban and the " no registration of firearms meeting definition of AW under prior law", "must provide digital pics of bullet button release", and "can't change release device" regulations are all consistent with the legislative purpose of banning and allowing a time-limited registration period for bullet button firearms.
    Untrue. There is a connection between the pre-1/1/17 configuration, which necessarily implies then-legal possession, being the ticket for post-1/1/17 registration. But there is no rational link between the maintenance of a specific feature set and the keeping of registered assault weapon status. There is no indicated legislative intent to that end, and if there was, the legislature would be admitting that the BB is unequal to the standard magazine release, despite their entire argument turning on the 'fact' that the BB is just as dangerous as a standard magazine release. In addition, the legislature knows how to create a new, separate class of assault weapon, and is deemed to know that such categories exist and are capable of being created. They did not do this. They added a forbidden feature to an existing category of assault weapon, e.g. "AW-by-features".

    Or else FGG is suggesting a greater level of legislative incompetence than I had anticipated.

    Can you make an argument that you meet the requirement for registration that you lawfully possessed the firearm in a BB configuration through 12/31/16, and once defined as an AW the release mechanism BB vs. standard is irrelevant? Sure. But that would be your interpretation competing against DOJ's interpretation, which the statute authorizes it to make via regulation, and i think you would lose that one.
    Not only can you make that argument, but CalDOJ cannot reasonably (even by our corrupt judiciary standards) make the counter-argument proposed. Absent an explicit delegation of authority to that effect, and absent an implied delegation of authority to that effect, on what grounds does CalDOJ make such a claim? There are no grounds they can cite in the statute or the legislative record to that extent. In fact, they would have to admit that AB-1135 and SB-880 find their genesis in the lie that a BB-equipped rifle is as-dangerous a weapon, and moreover as-capable as weapon, as the same rifle equipped with a standard USGI magazine release. Either A=B or A!=B. The legislature is saying the former, CalDOJ is saying the latter.

    Put another way, CalDOJ would have to argue that a "loophole" device, which is less capable than a USGI magazine release, and which arose as a sub-optimal fix for the inability to use a standard release, is by its nature actually equivalent, despite it's sub-optimal nature.

    Finally, there is no rationale, in terms of tracking the possession, transportation, or use of these rifles, for maintaining a BB vs a standard release. The tracking is done by database record, not by appearance or feature-set. If tracking by feature-set were necessary, for either technical or legal reasons, the same rules would have had to apply to AW-by-features firearms 16+ years ago, a well as to AW-by-name firearms. The implication is that either features don't matter on a RAW, or CalDOJ has been doing their job defectively for 20+ years.

    The only reason for "you have to keep the BB on a BB-RAW" is for CalDOJ to be institutionally vindictive. In legal terms, we call that "arbitrary and capricious". Just because the regulations may be adopted outside typical APA procedures does not mean a regulatory agency is immune from being challenged for their arbitrary actions.

    On the last point, in 2015 you could have taken a pre-2001 RAW and slapped a BB on it to avoid some of the RAW transport limitations. Today, though registered, it jumped from non-RAW 'status' to RAW 'status'. To the owner it's irrelevant, as there is already a registration on file. That owner can just put the USGI release back on today, without question, adhere to the RAW limitations, and go shooting. Or the owner can keep the BB on, but have to return to adhering to the RAW limitations (transport, locked case, loans, etc.).

    No one can explain how that is a rational or non-arbitrary result.

    Comment

    • edwardm
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2005
      • 1939

      Originally posted by FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
      Others seem to be able to follow along, maybe the problem is on your end lol.
      No. You just don't make convincing arguments, nor logical and coherent ones. "Lol", my a&&.

      Comment

      • tonyxcom
        Calguns Addict
        • Aug 2011
        • 6397

        Originally posted by dieselpower
        explain.

        there is no prohibited act of having the tool readily available, only that it is defined as a detachable magazine.
        Its not about the tool part

        "An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch magazine catch siring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine."

        An ar15 lacking a magazine catch assembly constitutes a detachable magazine.

        A magazine catch for an AR15 is defined as
        (1) a magazine catch
        (2) magazine catch spring
        (3) magazine release button

        Your AR-15 can't lack those 3 parts or it would constitute a detachable magazine.

        Comment

        • nagzul
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2013
          • 665

          Originally posted by dieselpower
          explain.

          there is no prohibited act of having the tool readily available, only that it is defined as a detachable magazine.
          Maybe I am mistaken. I took the language about leaving a magnet on the BB as being unauthorized.
          Even though the BB is now deemed a detachable magazine devise.
          Was the intent to say leaving a magnet on the BB is acceptable?
          It must stay on, but do the old rules still apply. Hummm
          A day may come when the will of man fails, but it is not this day.

          Comment

          • FABIO GETS GOOSED!!!
            Veteran Member
            • Feb 2006
            • 3012

            Originally posted by Fox Mulder
            Sooooooo changing the configuration (bullet button) post 1/1/17 somehow affects if it was lawfully configured and possessed prior to 1/1/17?

            Please explain. I am unclear on time travel, and how you are applying it to this situation.
            You are unclear on a lot of things lol.
            sigpic

            Comment

            • dieselpower
              Banned
              • Jan 2009
              • 11471

              Originally posted by tonyxcom
              Its not about the tool part

              "An AR-15 style firearm lacking a magazine catch assembly (magazine catch magazine catch siring and magazine release button) constitutes a detachable magazine."

              An ar15 lacking a magazine catch assembly constitutes a detachable magazine.

              A magazine catch for an AR15 is defined as
              (1) a magazine catch
              (2) magazine catch spring
              (3) magazine release button

              Your AR-15 can't lack those 3 parts or it would constitute a detachable magazine.
              and if you remove the magazine release mechanism, it would also violate 5477 if you remove the BB. I am not saying they can file charges against you only that it opens that avenue up as per the regs, while installing a mag button on BB leaves the BB on which doesnt violate 5477.

              Originally posted by nagzul
              Maybe I am mistaken. I took the language about leaving a magnet on the BB as being unauthorized.
              Even though the BB is now deemed a detachable magazine devise.
              Was the intent to say leaving a magnet on the BB is acceptable?
              It must stay on, but do the old rules still apply. Hummm
              can you show me that in the regs? I am not seeing that.

              Comment

              • tonyxcom
                Calguns Addict
                • Aug 2011
                • 6397

                Originally posted by dieselpower
                and if you remove the magazine release mechanism, it would also violate 5477 if you remove the BB. I am not saying they can file charges against you only that it opens that avenue up as per the regs, while installing a mag button on BB leaves the BB on which doesnt violate 5477.
                I don't disagree. Can you think of anywhere else on an AR15 you might be able to secure those 3 parts so your AR15 doesn't lack them?

                Comment

                • Stryfe76
                  Senior Member
                  • Feb 2009
                  • 744

                  So what are everyone's thoughts on a full featured SACF rifle running a CMMG .22lr conversion bolt. It's my understanding is that it's no longer a SACF rifle and can have the AW prohibited features.

                  Comment

                  • dieselpower
                    Banned
                    • Jan 2009
                    • 11471

                    Originally posted by tonyxcom
                    I don't disagree. Can you think of anywhere else on an AR15 you might be able to secure those 3 parts so your AR15 doesn't lack them?
                    First off, why would you want to lack those parts? You would then have to hold the magazine in place.

                    5477 says you cant remove the BB, fine, whatever, we will all fight this in court, but in the meantime, install a mag button. They are currently $25.

                    Comment

                    • naught
                      Junior Member
                      • Jun 2007
                      • 38

                      Originally posted by IVC
                      That's open for debate, but let's just pretend that we FIRST register, THEN remove BB so we don't worry about the exemption and only worry about the post-registration AW configurations.

                      At this time it wouldn't be prudent to remove BB before registration just to openly flaunt the DOJ as they might try to make an example of you.
                      I think that you might have misunderstood me. I'm arguing that 30680(a) prevents one from using a configuration after 1/1/2017 that would have been illegal before 1/1/2017. This would be independent of a firearm's registration status.

                      So my conclusion is that one is not going to be able to remove the BB either before or after registration, and I don't intend to remove my own BB unless I render my rifle featureless.

                      Comment

                      • IVC
                        I need a LIFE!!
                        • Jul 2010
                        • 17594

                        Originally posted by dieselpower
                        please dont quote 1/2 of what I said and tell me I am wrong, when we both agree on the same thing.
                        I see what you mean - yes, I was quick to respond and didn't read the whole thing, so my response was incorrect (regulation vs. law). Sorry about that.
                        sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

                        Comment

                        • tonyxcom
                          Calguns Addict
                          • Aug 2011
                          • 6397

                          Originally posted by dieselpower
                          First off, why would you want to lack those parts? You would then have to hold the magazine in place.
                          To be completely honest, I don't know . But I think the wording could potentially lead to some innovation, such that opening the action causes the magazine to fall out.

                          Originally posted by dieselpower
                          5477 says you cant remove the BB, fine, whatever, we will all fight this in court, but in the meantime, install a mag button. They are currently $25.
                          I'm not worried about this argument, and not trying to engage in it. The way I see it is, at best, we don't really know and I think you've(we've) all said all there is to say and at best, we don't really know.

                          It's only Day 1. This doesn't need to be resolved right now.

                          Comment

                          • IVC
                            I need a LIFE!!
                            • Jul 2010
                            • 17594

                            Originally posted by dieselpower
                            which is 100% what I said, you then cut 1/2 my post out and made it look like I was saying something I wasnt.
                            It wasn't him, it was me and it was just because I was drawn to the bolded part, but otherwise what you said was completely correct - law was doing one thing, regulation was doing another.
                            sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

                            Comment

                            • hossb7
                              Veteran Member
                              • Jul 2006
                              • 3285

                              Originally posted by hossb7
                              According to the link in the first post these regulations are proposed. Have they been approved/accepted/etc? Or are they still proposed.
                              No answer to this eh?
                              We in Bangor, Maine now baby.

                              Comment

                              • IVC
                                I need a LIFE!!
                                • Jul 2010
                                • 17594

                                Originally posted by ifilef
                                Beats me. His post was ambiguous with no emjoi. And in iight of his recent posts, I can't tell if he's changed his original position or not.
                                ALL of his posts have an implied "LOL" and a at the end...
                                sigpicNRA Benefactor Member

                                Comment

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