80% lower

[kcstott]

All true but, I would still not let anyone use my equipment for building a firearm. Even your best buddy will probably turn your *** in if confronted with the law enforcement and possibility of looking at time if caught with a non-serialized and unregistered firearm and can't prove that he has the equipment to home build it on...

depends on whom you call a buddy.

[AKSOG]

depends on whom you call a buddy.

You know what they say. "A friend would help you move, a true friend would help you move the body"

[Gunsmith Dan]

You guys got to blame the right people for the BATF&E crack down on personally manufactured weapons.

The Cortez-Gracia Brothers from Sacramento along with 11 other business in that area.

ATF Press release link

On top of all that they were also illegal immigrants ........ yea I guess they are doing jobs that Americans won't do.

If you pay attention to the dates you will see that the time of the investigation and arrests fits with the same time frame that BATF&E started to crack down in CA on personal manufacturing of firearms.

SO you should really say thank you to the Cortez-Garcia Brothers, the 11 other businesses involved AND the Mexican Government for the BATF&E crack down.

[kcstott]

You know what they say. "A friend would help you move, a true friend would help you move the body"

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Trust me with your life, but never your money or your wife

[CSACANNONEER]

You guys got to blame the right people for the BATF&E crack down on personally manufactured weapons.

The Cortez-Gracia Brothers from Sacramento along with 11 other business in that area.

ATF Press release link

On top of all that they were also illegal immigrants ........ yea I guess they are doing jobs that Americans won't do.

If you pay attention to the dates you will see that the time of the investigation and arrests fits with the same time frame that BATF&E started to crack down in CA on personal manufacturing of firearms.

SO you should really say thank you to the Cortez-Garcia Brothers, the 11 other businesses involved AND the Mexican Government for the BATF&E crack down.

"The right people"? Like Ares for running radio adds and putting up billboards? Without their bringing bad PR to homebuilds, a lot of the other idiots wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place.

[Gunsmith Dan]

CSACANNONEER:

Did you even read what was on the link and other information on the internet?

While sticking your finger in the eye of the Government , as some have suggested Ares is doing, is never a smart thing to do ...... that does not come even CLOSE to what the Cortez-Garica Brothers did to get the BATF&E cracking down. The BATF&E was not even caring about personal builds, unless there were large amount being made, until these bozo brothers got investigated.

To give you a clue what they were doing:

You get a "80%" lower and bring it to them with all the other parts.

They fully machine the lower for you and assemble the rifle with no markings, you did not even have to touch anything.

Then if you requested full auto they would say "Sure no problem" again the rifle is not marked

They would then say" Well since you going full auto how about putting a Silencer on that too" ok sure why not.

Again the Silencer was not marked as well.

The entire transaction is a cash only sale and no paperwork or background check is done .... heck they did not have a FFL or even were legal to be in the U.S.A. either.

So how you can say that what Areas is supposedly doing is anywhere close to what the Cortez-Garcia brother did to cause a major crack down on personal manufacturing of firearms is beyond me.

Just look at the time frame of the investigation and the time frame of when the BATF&E started to seriously crack down.


The BATF&E were able to get 7 rifles exactly as I described above and over 345 firearms were seized ......... God only knows how many full auto and silenced rifles they made which it seems mostly made it back to Mexico for the Cartels to use.


The rest of yous

The BATF&E has plainly stated that as far as personal manufacturing of firearms that:

The part that becomes the regulated firearm must be completed only by the end user

That ANY machine (whether you own it, borrow it, renting, leasing etc.) can be used but the work must be done on the property that you are the primary on and is under your direct control (you have the keys to the doors and codes to alarms and are the one responsible for paying, make no difference if you own, lease or rent).

Example:

You lease space in an industrial park for your business that is not related to firearms in any way. You lease a milling machine and have it installed at your business. If you are the only one milling out the "80%" lowers then you would be perfectly legal.

This would not work for sub leasing a space from a existing business as you would not have it under your direct control (no access to everything in the shop).

[mrlonewolf]

Keep it civil or keep it close.

[kcstott]

CSACANNONEER:

Did you even read what was on the link and other information on the internet?

While sticking your finger in the eye of the Government , as some have suggested Ares is doing, is never a smart thing to do ...... that does not come even CLOSE to what the Cortez-Garica Brothers did to get the BATF&E cracking down. The BATF&E was not even caring about personal builds, unless there were large amount being made, until these bozo brothers got investigated.

To give you a clue what they were doing:

You get a "80%" lower and bring it to them with all the other parts.

They fully machine the lower for you and assemble the rifle with no markings, you did not even have to touch anything.

Then if you requested full auto they would say "Sure no problem" again the rifle is not marked

They would then say" Well since you going full auto how about putting a Silencer on that too" ok sure why not.

Again the Silencer was not marked as well.

The entire transaction is a cash only sale and no paperwork or background check is done .... heck they did not have a FFL or even were legal to be in the U.S.A. either.

So how you can say that what Areas is supposedly doing is anywhere close to what the Cortez-Garcia brother did to cause a major crack down on personal manufacturing of firearms is beyond me.

Just look at the time frame of the investigation and the time frame of when the BATF&E started to seriously crack down.


The BATF&E were able to get 7 rifles exactly as I described above and over 345 firearms were seized ......... God only knows how many full auto and silenced rifles they made which it seems mostly made it back to Mexico for the Cartels to use.


The rest of yous

The BATF&E has plainly stated that as far as personal manufacturing of firearms that:

The part that becomes the regulated firearm must be completed only by the end user

That ANY machine (whether you own it, borrow it, renting, leasing etc.) can be used but the work must be done on the property that you are the primary on and is under your direct control (you have the keys to the doors and codes to alarms and are the one responsible for paying, make no difference if you own, lease or rent).

Example:

You lease space in an industrial park for your business that is not related to firearms in any way. You lease a milling machine and have it installed at your business. If you are the only one milling out the "80%" lowers then you would be perfectly legal.

This would not work for sub leasing a space from a existing business as you would not have it under your direct control (no access to everything in the shop).

A few things Dan

No where in that press release was there any mention of suppressors. Silencers are a media term and not a legal one. so my guess is you read that off the Sac Bee which love to embellish its headlines just to get a reader to read

two there was also no mention of control of the property or machines.

If you read the affidavit that was released, No suppressors were mentioned in the officers affidavit, Class III weapons were not mentioned as well. Nor was there any mention of control of property and machinery.

Now if I missed something please let me know

Here's a copy if you care to read up on the exact statements the ATF officer made.

Now for all the nay sayers that told me I was wrong on the ownership of the machines. read the cease and desist letter below. Third paragraph down, it is spelled out perfectly.
And yes it is on the premise of a for profit enterprise. the fact remains that the ability for a person to loan out his machines facilitates the build to a degree not fitting with the personal build personal use portion of the GCA.

This is where I feel the AK crowd has a leg to stand on because there is no simple plug and play path to an AK and the tooling involved is much more in keeping with the GCA spirit of home construction of a firearm.
the fact that the physical work is being done by the builder and only guidance is being provide in a very limited degree to the builder.

The guidance provided by a shop supporting AR builds is tremendously higher and almost no physical work is needed on a CNC machine, and the limited amount of work needed with a jig is just not fitting with the GCA personal use personal build aspect of the law.

That said if you bought your own jig and used someone else's drill press or manual mill to do the work without payment or compensation to the owner of the machine tool, i say you are good. but that is just my opinion and hold zero weight legally so you have been warned.

[jay_cue]

That's exactly what I'm getting at.

Trust me with your life, but never your money or your wife

it's you AND me until it's you OR me.

[kcstott]

it's you AND me until it's you OR me.

Sad to say but yeah thats true with a lot of people.

Fact remains if the two of you know how to keep you mouths shut and your stories straight. they have nothing. Because in reality no laws have been broken. Again this is all opinion of the ATF,

[JaredKaragen]

fill out paperwork with the owner of the "tool machine".

Transfer ownership for long enough to use it (free of charge, no $$$ involved, basically gift) and after you finish, sign it back to the original owner.

Nothing they can do to refute that you owned the tooling, as you would have documentation to prove it.

That would get around the ATF retardedness at first thought.

but as I do...

I own all my own tooling.

When I need to use a friends machine shop to make car/turbo parts... I am always welcome when the mills/lathes are not in use after hours.

What I make is my business. Hes like family anyways. I suggest you keep it as such personally. So theres no way to misconstrude your intentions to make yourself some property.

Do not let someone profit from you manufacturing any of your own guns, unless its a silent 3rd party vendor you are buying jigs, bits, mills, etc from. I doubt the ATF could make your life a living hell unless you stray from this ideal.

Sorry if my reply seems a little jumbled. Im in bed recovering from surgery.... but I think my point was advocated properly.

[CSACANNONEER]

CSACANNONEER:

Did you even read what was on the link and other information on the internet?

I read it when it first came out. Yea, criminals who want to manufacture firearms will continue to manufacture firearms no matter what extra laws are passed. The morons you are referring to are nothing more than common criminals and their actions are not what has spurred the recent issues with homebuilt firearms. They actually got into the game very late, long after Ares started pulling their dickish moves and threw us legit homebuilders under the bus while they lined their pockets. Ares and their advertising brought the home build game into public light and their actions are probably part of what spurred many of the other illegal shops to start up. So, you can either keep pointing fingers at those who followed or point fingers at the ones who started the ball rolling this time around.

[kcstott]

fill out paperwork with the owner of the "tool machine".

Transfer ownership for long enough to use it (free of charge, no $$$ involved, basically gift) and after you finish, sign it back to the original owner.

Nothing they can do to refute that you owned the tooling, as you would have documentation to prove it.

That would get around the ATF retardedness at first thought.

but as I do...

I own all my own tooling.

When I need to use a friends machine shop to make car/turbo parts... I am always welcome when the mills/lathes are not in use after hours.

What I make is my business. Hes like family anyways. I suggest you keep it as such personally. So theres no way to misconstrude your intentions to make yourself some property.

Do not let someone profit from you manufacturing any of your own guns, unless its a silent 3rd party vendor you are buying jigs, bits, mills, etc from. I doubt the ATF could make your life a living hell unless you stray from this ideal.

Sorry if my reply seems a little jumbled. Im in bed recovering from surgery.... but I think my point was advocated properly.

Ares tried that and was told it was a no go.

that is where this cease and desist came from. they tried to lease out equipment. thats why ATF say on property you control. meaning real property as in real estate.

[JaredKaragen]

Ares tried that and was told it was a no go.

that is where this cease and desist came from. they tried to lease out equipment. thats why ATF say on property you control. meaning real property as in real estate.

I kinda see what your getting at... That cavet has eluded me until now.

What if... you were an employee at that address?

[kcstott]

I kinda see what your getting at... That cavet has eluded me until now.

What if... you were an employee at that address?

That would not make it your property or your equipment that you have sole control over

there's to many what if's

I'll say it again if you ain't building on your land, on your tools. Then the ATF may have something to say,

Outside of that if no one but you, your friend, and the fence post knows WHO CARES how you get it done.

keep in mind this is all opinion and not law.

I use to help and feel 100% confident i was doing everything legal, but with all the lime light, and stupid people asking stupid questions on illegal actions, I gave it up. I figured one day it would be an ATF informant or UA paying me a visit and I don't need the hassle.

To many dip dunks getting into this stuff very late in the game and trying to do stupid stuff and not putting forth any effort to find out what is legal and why.