80% lower

[ModulusArms]

There are quite a few jigs out there. Some need to be modified to fit and some do not. Do a search and its very clear. I only know of one universal jig.

[kcstott]

I know ATF cracked down on the "80% build rings" that were trying to skirt the law by finishing them for others, or violating the spirit of the law with perceived loopholes, but I thought the concept of that was if you lease or rent your equipment (ie: business activity / profiting) to someone to complete a 80% lower then it could be presumed that you are taking part in the manufacturing process. This was because of the whole "pay to use equipment" angle people were running I imagine, since they were profiting off the manufacture of lowers even if they weren't the ones doing the labor. But I didn't realize you can't go over to a guys house and use his equipment for free, just being friendly. That is a no-no?

Would that mean if my neighbor borrows my lawnmower I need to make sure he isn't attaching an endmill to the shaft to finish a lower, lol? Does that mean Home Depot is now asking people if the tools they are renting are for gunsmithing? With that type of crazy interpretation where does it end?

I don't know any other local builders, so it isn't like it personally affects me one way or the other, but it is pretty crazy to think that two people can't be in the same space with their hobby or sharing tools.

It all comes down to paying for the use of the tools. But the ATF has also state that the spirit of the law is that the home builder must build it on their own property with their own tools. so it don't get much clearer then that.

Ares got shut down for the exact same thing very nice letter of Cease and Desist from the ATF saying it was unlicensed firearms manufacturing.

so have a blast guys.

[ModulusArms]

I heard from a moderator on here that its the build parties that the ATF crack down on. Its a long shot from borrowing your neighbors Dewalt to pressing "Run" on a programmed CNC machine.

I think there are two main difference that are going to get the ATF involved.

#1 Are you doing this commercially?
If you are charging someone to finish their lower. If you are it would seem you are adding something for them that they need to complete it that they did not supply meaning you assisted.

#2 Are you doing the work yourself?
I would argue that pressing a button on a CNC is not building the lower. It is allowing someone else to make it for you. The real magic is in programming it. If you programmed it from reading a book and then chucked it in the machine and learned to set coordinates and pressed run no one would be cracking down on that.

A build party where a bunch of friends get together and use a common Drill and Router and all make their own lowers while they hang out on a friday evening shouldn't be illegal. I am not a lawyer and maybe it is illegal but to me it seems a matter of common sense. If America stops that from happening we are in a lot of trouble.

[BlooDSMeaR]

I heard from a moderator on here that its the build parties that the ATF crack down on. Its a long shot from borrowing your neighbors Dewalt to pressing "Run" on a programmed CNC machine.

I think there are two main difference that are going to get the ATF involved.

#1 Are you doing this commercially?
If you are charging someone to finish their lower? If you are it would seem you are adding something for them that they need to complete it that they did not supply meaning you assisted.

#2 Are you doing the work yourself?
I would argue that pressing a button a CNC is not building the lower. It is allowing someone else to make it for you. The real magic is in programming it. If you programmed it from reading a book and then chucked it in the machine and learned to set coordinates and pressed run no one would be cracking down on that.

A build party where a bunch of friends get together and use a common Drill and Router and all make their own lowers while they hang out on a friday evening shouldn't be illegal. I am not a lawyer and maybe it is illegal but to me it seems a matter of common sense. If America stops that from happening we are in a lot of trouble.

THIS....

[ModulusArms]

THIS....

I dont follow

[umd]

I dont follow

He is agreeing with you

[ModulusArms]

He is agreeing with you

[Ub3rD0rk]

This forum is about 2 ATF letters away from getting shut down due to sharing information regarding the lending of tools, for the use of manufacturing assault weapons. I even heard of one guy getting 25 years just for thinking about an 80%, while driving pass a Home Depot. Yesterday my neighbor asked to borrow a screwdriver, I know he's got a new AR he's working on so i told that jump street troll to kick rocks.

[ModulusArms]

This forum is about 2 ATF letters away from getting shut down due to sharing information regarding the lending of tools, for the use of manufacturing assault weapons. I even heard of one guy getting 25 years just for thinking about an 80%, while driving pass a Home Depot. Yesterday my neighbor asked to borrow a screwdriver, I know he's got a new AR he's working on so i told that jump street troll to kick rocks.

[1lowluv]

im in visalia and have some jigs you could borrow. thats about all the help i can be though

[BlooDSMeaR]

im in visalia and have some jigs you could borrow. thats about all the help i can be though

THAT'S AWESOME!!!!! I will most defiantly take you up on that. You my friend are a life saver!!!!

I will send you a pm!

[kcstott]

I heard from a moderator on here that its the build parties that the ATF crack down on. Its a long shot from borrowing your neighbors Dewalt to pressing "Run" on a programmed CNC machine.

I think there are two main difference that are going to get the ATF involved.

#1 Are you doing this commercially?
If you are charging someone to finish their lower. If you are it would seem you are adding something for them that they need to complete it that they did not supply meaning you assisted.

#2 Are you doing the work yourself?
I would argue that pressing a button on a CNC is not building the lower. It is allowing someone else to make it for you. The real magic is in programming it. If you programmed it from reading a book and then chucked it in the machine and learned to set coordinates and pressed run no one would be cracking down on that.

A build party where a bunch of friends get together and use a common Drill and Router and all make their own lowers while they hang out on a friday evening shouldn't be illegal. I am not a lawyer and maybe it is illegal but to me it seems a matter of common sense. If America stops that from happening we are in a lot of trouble.

All I can say is you guys are late to the game. ATF has stated in letters of cease and decist that tooling ownership determines whom the manufacture is. You assume that means CNC only. It does not. Ares tried to lease machine tools another guy got a letter of opinion on the use of manual machines and was told that type of tool didn't matter it was who owned it that constituted the manufacturing.

Guys all this info is out the but you have to dig deeper then the first google page that pops up or the first search phrase you use.

Fact remains though if no one but you and your buddy know how it was done who cares???

[xsefan]

That vise that makes your drill press into a mill looks cool. Any one use one before? I would recommend I bigger drill press. I have had a small harbor frieght and it had a bit of play it was used but the drill bit would walk a enough that I had to use the dremel a lot more than I wanted. I gave the drill press to a neighbor that used it for wood work. He loves it . I dont know if there are some made for wood and some made for metal? Just shake the chuck if you get flex or movement or noise move to the next one

[CSACANNONEER]

That vise that makes your drill press into a mill looks cool. Any one use one before? I would recommend I bigger drill press. I have had a small harbor frieght and it had a bit of play it was used but the drill bit would walk a enough that I had to use the dremel a lot more than I wanted. I gave the drill press to a neighbor that used it for wood work. He loves it . I dont know if there are some made for wood and some made for metal? Just shake the chuck if you get flex or movement or noise move to the next one

No vise turns a drill press into a mill. Drill presses are not designed for side loads and mills are. That said, a two or three axis vise and drill press can be used as a mill but, it won't last as long or give the precise adjustments you will get from a decent mill.

[tr6guns]

All I can say is you guys are late to the game. ATF has stated in letters of cease and decist that tooling ownership determines whom the manufacture is. You assume that means CNC only. It does not. Ares tried to lease machine tools another guy got a letter of opinion on the use of manual machines and was told that type of tool didn't matter it was who owned it that constituted the manufacturing.

Guys all this info is out the but you have to dig deeper then the first google page that pops up or the first search phrase you use.

Fact remains though if no one but you and your buddy know how it was done who cares???

All true but, I would still not let anyone use my equipment for building a firearm. Even your best buddy will probably turn your *** in if confronted with the law enforcement and possibility of looking at time if caught with a non-serialized and unregistered firearm and can't prove that he has the equipment to home build it on...