Yet another parking question

[kcstott]

Laurels is Manganese.

Even the Brownells stuff has a Pre dip that blackens the park

[valley82]

I don't know if these are technically black, but they are pretty dark gray. No pre dip, just blast, brake cleaner, park tank, water rinse, oil. All 10 of the AKs I have built are like this, same process every time.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=159415&d=1342414336

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=156086&d=1340669860

[backstrap]

Laurels is Manganese.

Even the Brownells stuff has a Pre dip that blackens the park

Maybe the point was missed here? If you use a dye to coat a firearm before parkerizing you are contaminating the metal. You can get a black result but the finish will not be as durable. As you can see in the link I posted I speak from experience. Nobody expects you to know everything. lol.

[Gunsmith Dan]

well from what I can see looks as dark as a park job will get .... but not a clear pic and it was from a distance.

Backstrap:

The brownells pre dip blackener solution is a chemical process you do before putting the parts into the park solution ... not into the park solution and it turns zinc phosphate nice and black.

FYI brownells discontinued the blackening dip and they did not have a answer if they planning to replace it. They said there was very little demand for it as the manganese phosphate is dark enough for most.

[backstrap]

Hmmm what chemical process is used? Maybe the chemist who educated me on the chemicals used and the phosphating process was wrong. I believe the pre dip is a coloring process.

[kcstott]

Maybe the point was missed here? If you use a dye to coat a firearm before parkerizing you are contaminating the metal. You can get a black result but the finish will not be as durable. As you can see in the link I posted I speak from experience. Nobody expects you to know everything. lol.

I think You mis understand what a predip is.

You can't dye parkerizing as it's an acid etch. And any coating you apply will either hinder the parkerizing process or stop it all together.

There is an acid etch predip that is made to work with parkerizing. It not a dye or any type of coating. It's another type of acid that reacts with the steel to create the black color. I believe it's hydrochloric acid

[Gunsmith Dan]

If chemicals are used to produce a result ..... it is not a chemical process?

If you paint something is it a chemical process??

The main difference is that the pre dip blackener uses Hydrocloric acid with other chemicals to etch and give the metal a dark gray finish and pickling at the same time. It is closer to a slow rust bluing process than parkerizing in reality.

The Parkerizing solution uses Phosphoric acid and the Best of the 3 types for the pre dip process is Zinc Parkerizing. After the pre dip and rinse you then parkerize to get the dark black finish.

The funny thing is Parkerizing is not a metal conversion like bluing is ( very common misconception )... it actually is a plating process with phosphated metal.

In fact most people do not know that you CAN BLUE a parkerized finish to give it a black/black blue finish if you wanted to spend the money on it.

[valley82]

NOT AN EXPERT, but I hang out with a few in the AKTEAM, all I know for a fact is that 15 or so random people some nobodies, some vets all blast, brake clean, park, then rinse in water, then oil. The only time i have seen the park come spotty and not dark is when the blasting was not even or thorough, a second blast fixes the problem. I think the problem is either the blast media is not corse enough, or the park solution is jacked up (which means that both types of solution are not right) that seems like a long shot. just my two cents.

[Gunsmith Dan]

320 grit is where you want to end up at when Parkerizing to get the best of both worlds ... nice finish and durable finish.

[kcstott]

If chemicals are used to produce a result ..... it is not a chemical process?

If you paint something is it a chemical process??

The main difference is that the pre dip blackener uses Hydrocloric acid with other chemicals to etch and give the metal a dark gray finish and pickling at the same time. It is closer to a slow rust bluing process than parkerizing in reality.

The Parkerizing solution uses Phosphoric acid and the Best of the 3 types for the pre dip process is Zinc Parkerizing. After the pre dip and rinse you then parkerize to get the dark black finish.

The funny thing is Parkerizing is not a metal conversion like bluing is ( very common misconception )... it actually is a plating process with phosphated metal.

In fact most people do not know that you CAN BLUE a parkerized finish to give it a black/black blue finish if you wanted to spend the money on it.

Well the State EPA considers it a metal conversion coating. Even though I agree it is an Electroless plating process. It's either Zink phosphate or Manganese Phosphate.

Paint is not what I would consider a chemical process. Even though again technically correct. I feel that it's a chemical COATING. I know semantics.

[backstrap]

The pre dip is more like an acid smutting process then a chemical reaction. Bottom line is it degrades the finish and it's not needed! I have pics of my own work that proves it. If anyone wants to put their soot park job against mine lmk and I'll ship a part out.

[Roccobro]

The pre dip is more like an acid smutting process then a chemical reaction. Bottom line is it degrades the finish and it's not needed! I have pics of my own work that proves it. If anyone wants to put their soot park job against mine lmk and I'll ship a part out.

Why so hostile? Pre-dip works and helps. I'm happy your stuff is dark enough for you, but all my guys stuff come out BLACK and they are happy with the results.

Why not park the OP's stuff so he can relax and enjoy his build? Put your money where your mouth is so to speak.

Justin

[Gunsmith Dan]

Backstrap

Pre dip is no different than slow rust blue there is no "smut" involved, if that is your thinking then all bluing is just smut as well.

Like I said all the pre dip is doing is adding a type of bluing and surface etching (pickling) to have the parkerizing come out darker. In fact the parkerized finish comes out better looking and has better adhesion to the surface after a pickling bath. Parkerizing does not need a polished surface .... in fact if you have too smooth of a surface it will wear off much quicker.

You can blue it first or blue it after both will give a really nice black or blue black finish. While you might have guns that come out a nice color not all alloys work the same.

In fact some guns will have parts that are such a different alloy from other parts they can never get past medium dark gray.

I respect your thoughts about how you do stuff but anyone who does finishing on all types of different alloys will tell you no one chemical works the same on all metal types .... except for maybe epoxy paint.

Just because it is different doesn't make it wrong, there is always more than one way to get the same results.

KcStott

Ahh actually the EPA DOES define Manganese Phosphate as electroless plated coating in:

NESHAP sections 40 CFR Subpart WWWWWW 63.11511 under definitions for Electroless Plating

Here is a link to NESHAP sections 40 CFR Subpart WWWWWW

but Zinc Phosphate and Iron Phosphate coatings are not regulated by the EPA.

[kcstott]

Backstrap

Pre dip is no different than slow rust blue there is no "smut" involved, if that is your thinking then all bluing is just smut as well.

Like I said all the pre dip is doing is adding a type of bluing and surface etching (pickling) to have the parkerizing come out darker. In fact the parkerized finish comes out better looking and has better adhesion to the surface after a pickling bath. Parkerizing does not need a polished surface .... in fact if you have too smooth of a surface it will wear off much quicker.

You can blue it first or blue it after both will give a really nice black or blue black finish. While you might have guns that come out a nice color not all alloys work the same.

In fact some guns will have parts that are such a different alloy from other parts they can never get past medium dark gray.

I respect your thoughts about how you do stuff but anyone who does finishing on all types of different alloys will tell you no one chemical works the same on all metal types .... except for maybe epoxy paint.

Just because it is different doesn't make it wrong, there is always more than one way to get the same results.

KcStott

Ahh actually the EPA DOES define Manganese Phosphate as electroless plated coating in:

NESHAP sections 40 CFR Subpart WWWWWW 63.11511 under definitions for Electroless Plating

Here is a link to NESHAP sections 40 CFR Subpart WWWWWW

but Zinc Phosphate and Iron Phosphate coatings are not regulated by the EPA.

Thats Federal regs
The state is different. and Maybe I misspoke it may not be the State EPA I think it's either the county health dept, CARB, or CSWRCB. either way Leo Slivnick had a hard time with the local regs getting his stuff taken care of. And when the determination was made they published a list of "metal conversion coating" and that included plating of all types, Anodizing, Bluing and Parkerizing. So someone is regulating it and new shops need to be Zero emitters.

[Gunsmith Dan]

Actually State and Local pretty much copy almost all of the EPA regs and the EPA has granted the San Diego county guys authority to give permits on behalf of the EPA.

As far as the process I know it has been a long road for me .... took me total of 6 months to get the FFL and all the CA and San Diego permits to be a gunsmith ...... 2 years and counting for doing plating and bluing then being told "ohh actually most of these processes and the amount of chemicals you will have on site would make them exempt"

Now they delaying me again for my parkerizing setup because I am using Manganese Parkerizing and some manager in another department never signed off on it AAAARRRRGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!