Training Method

[Kempfer]

Tachypsychia what Willis is talking about, this is unknown.

[ramzar]

HMMMM I dunno we all teach the same program & same concepts. So you tell me.

I take that as a yes to my question.

Now should I post every course & trainer I have taken a course with? Or should I post CFS instructors backgrounds and what they've done?

No because it's unimportant.

I gave you a sampling of instructors I have taken tactical classes with and none of them espoused the CFS reload technique. Slide release varies between racking and slide release button but few insist on one over the other.

[JRV]

I take that as a yes to my question.



I gave you a sampling of instructors I have taken tactical classes with and none of them espoused the CFS reload technique. Slide release varies between racking and slide release button but few insist on one over the other.

Of course the answer is yes. We don't pick and choose our concepts. We teach the CFS methodology.

So we (CFS instructors) should change what we do because other instructors do it differently?

We teach what we teach because it makes the most sense and we explain WHY it makes sense.

You also increase efficiency & consistency by limiting options and training things one way.

[JRV]

Then as I understand it CFS teaches THE way?

We teach what we believe is the best way for counter ambush training under plausible circumstances.

[SoCal326]

JRV, it sounds like you know your stuff. I'm a bit confused about your suggested method of reloading though. I was taught that bringing the pistol in close to your body for a reload is the the way to go because it is easier to find the mag well when your weapon, hands and magazine are close. If you have your arms extended and attempt to bring the magwell and magazine together you have a better chance of missing the magwell and failing to quickly reload your weapon.

What method do you teach in your classes?

[JRV]

JRV, it sounds like you know your stuff. I'm a bit confused about your suggested method of reloading though. I was taught that bringing the pistol in close to your body for a reload is the the way to go because it is easier to find the mag well when your weapon, hands and magazine are close. If you have your arms extended and attempt to bring the magwell and magazine together you have a better chance of missing the magwell and failing to quickly reload your weapon.

What method do you teach in your classes?

Here is a video from by buddy's company demoing how we teach the critical incident reload in CFS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzjC-b4TfjI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[elSquid]

I've seen videos of FonF of guys getting guns smashed off their faces, spoke with trainers who have done said thing to students during scenarios and I've done the same to people during sim gun FonF scenarios.

So it happens a lot in FoF training. How often does it happen in the real world?

How many times has a guy shot to slide lock at a guy an arms length away, gone for the reload, only then to have the bad guy smash the gun into his face?

-- Michael

[JRV]

So it happens a lot in FoF training. How often does it happen in the real world?

How many times has a guy shot to slide lock at a guy an arms length away, gone for the reload, only then to have the bad guy smash the gun into his face?

-- Michael

How about the fact that reloading in the high compressed ready is consistent with presentation from the holster, where we clear malfunctions, it is where we have the most dexterity and strength for weapon retention.

How about the fact that during a reload if you have your gun in your face & are looking at the gun during a real fight and your body functions like the rest of the human race during a critical incident. That the distortion of the perception of time causes things to be perceived to be going in slow motion. But you're going your full speed, but you look at your gun mid reload and perceive you're going slower than you really are, so you speed up and bobble your reload.

But I mean why would we train for what works well with what the body does naturally? Why would we consider the human body, physiology and have it influence how we train?

So go ahead and tell me how your competition has you experience this....oh wait it's not the same because you know the buzzer is about to go off. So go ahead gun game fan boys, bash what you don't understand or refuse to grasp.

[elSquid]

How about the fact that reloading in the high compressed ready is consistent with presentation from the holster, where we clear malfunctions, it is where we have the most dexterity and strength for weapon retention.

How about the fact that during a reload if you have your gun in your face & are looking at the gun during a real fight and your body functions like the rest of the human race during a critical incident. That the distortion of the perception of time causes things to be perceived to be going in slow motion. But you're going your full speed, but you look at your gun mid reload and perceive you're going slower than you really are, so you speed up and bobble your reload.

But I mean why would we train for what works well with what the body does naturally? Why would we consider the human body, physiology and have it influence how we train?

So go ahead and tell me how your competition has you experience this....oh wait it's not the same because you know the buzzer is about to go off. So go ahead gun game fan boys, bash what you don't understand or refuse to grasp.

So, how many times in the real world has a guy shot to slide lock at a guy an arms length away, gone for the reload, only then to have the bad guy smash the gun into his face?

-- Michael

[JRV]

How does your curriculum trigger this instinctual body response?
How can CFS quantify this technique as being the most effective way?
Is it your suggestion that hand eye coordination is a hindrance?
What does the body naturally do? The truth is everyone reacts differently.

Are training is based on what the body does naturally under critical stress. We discuss why we do things the way we do. We also explain the body's external and internal reactions and why your training should work well with those things.

Through empirical evidence we have seen what happens during dynamic critical incidents. CC cameras, dash cams, surveillance cameras, watching videos of FonF training & science. Empirical evidence shows that people do certain things during critical incidents.

I'm saying looking at your gun is a bad idea during a dynamic critical incident. Look above at my post about the distortion of the perception of time. Their is no need to look at the gun to reload and no need for it to be at eye level. You don't need to look at your ***** to find it to wipe it.

Proprioception: from Latin proprius, meaning "one's own", "individual" and perception, is the sense of the relative position of neighbouring parts of the body and strength of effort being employed in movement.

If I told you to touch your ear would you need a mirror? No because you're of your spacial awareness of your body. so if the gun is in your hand your other hand can insert the mag without looking. Why would you want to look at a gun in your hand during a reload when you're in the middle of a fight? I'm more worried about the guy trying to kill me.

What does the body do when caught off guard?

http://youtu.be/gOHyWm22sM4

Everyone reacts differently? Really why do we always see the same things when people are caught off guard?

Here's another video to explain the difference of a mindset of techniques that work on a square range vs a dynamic critical incident and how the brain processes information between a gun game and an ambush.

http://youtu.be/KBcBYKTC5c4

[JRV]

So, how many times in the real world has a guy shot to slide lock at a guy an arms length away, gone for the reload, only then to have the bad guy smash the gun into his face?

-- Michael

Really that's all you can focus on? To much science for you to focus on my explanation of the distortion of the perception of time?

If I've seen it happen in FonF why would I not believe it could happen in a real fight with multiple attackers? Reloading with a gun in your face is wrong for so many reasons in a real fight.

[ZombieTactics]

As an aside, I was just watching a video by Bob Vogel: "Mastering IDPA". In observing his technique for reloads, I wouldn't exactly call it "up by his face".

It was also notable that he gave credence to using the powerstroke method as a solid technique used by some, but that he personally found using the slide-catch/release method faster. I don't see anything there contradictory with the suggestion that the powerstroke method might be "better" ... aka "more consistently reliable" for self-defense purposes, and not necessarily slower if trained often.

[FireSnake77]

FWIW,

As a CFS instructor, I have to say:

Combat Focus Shooting is NOT the final solution, because we are always seeking to evolve with forward progress. Like science, it's the best we've got at this point in time. Like a craft, we customize the concepts to the shooter based on physical and gear limitations.

CFS is NOT designed to make you the FASTEST shooter, nor the most ACCURATE shooter , because it is fundamentally about what is most efficient for the shooter in the context of a dynamic critical incident. Instead, it is designed to give you the best balance of speed and precision that takes into account delays caused by cognitive processing of information and the body's instinctive flinch-startle reaction.

Ignore what's popular. Examine the material. Question the concepts.

Always ask, is there a better way?

Mike

[JRV]

FWIW,

As a CFS instructor, I have to say:

Combat Focus Shooting is NOT the final solution, because we are always seeking to evolve with forward progress. Like science, it's the best we've got at this point in time. Like a craft, we customize the concepts to the shooter based on physical and gear limitations.

CFS is NOT designed to make you the FASTEST shooter, nor the most ACCURATE shooter , because it is fundamentally about what is most efficient for the shooter in the context of a dynamic critical incident. Instead, it is designed to give you the best balance of speed and precision that takes into account delays caused by cognitive processing of information and the body's instinctive flinch-startle reaction.

Ignore what's popular. Examine the material. Question the concepts.

Always ask, is there a better way?

Mike

Bottom line when you take a CFS course you get the best information/concepts WE know at that time. Like Mike said the program constantly evolves. I've been a CFS instructor for four years and the program has evolved tremendously in that time.

http://combatfocusshooting.com/2011/01/respectful-irreverence

Ask the why? With an open mind. I've changed things recently with a long gun because I asked the instructor why is your way better than this way? What are the benefits? What are the benefits in your opinion over the way I'm doing it now? We had a healthy discussion and I chose to change the way I did said thing. Why? Because it made sense. Just because something works on a square range on a sunny day, does not mean it's the most efficient during a dynamic critical incident when you're caught off guard. I train people and train personally for that small slice of time that is the worst case scenario.

I may not always articulate what is going through my head in the best way for a healthy discussion. For that I apologize, but when people wont think outside the bubble they do things is frustrating. Just because I believe a certain way is the best way, doesn't mean I wont at least think about the concept someone brought up. If it makes sense I will dig deeper into the concept.

[elSquid]

Really that's all you can focus on? To much science for you to focus on my explanation of the distortion of the perception of time?

I've got an ak-chu-al degree in sciency-stuff; never fear!

Joking aside, the way science works is that I get to critically look at assertions you make. When you attempt to sidestep issues, I ask the same questions again.

If I've seen it happen in FonF why would I not believe it could happen in a real fight with multiple attackers?

Perhaps your FoF training isn't actually based on realistic scenarios and/or participants aren't behaving in realistic ways?

That's one of the reasons why I asked the question, twice. If having a gun smashed into your face during a reload is a common occurrence in a real gunfight, then that definitely is compelling. If it's an infrequent event, then less so. If it happens extremely rarely or not at all, then there is a fundamental problem with your FoF training - it's not reflecting reality.

-- Michael