Training Method

[ZombieTactics]

I swear ... I go away for a couple of hours and all hell breaks loose.

The signal/noise ratio in this thread is pretty awful, but I submit it's possible to filter out a lot of the "noise" and come away with something useful. Aside from the nonsense, there is actually some good, productive stuff to think about here.

Hello to Rob ... thanks for chiming in. It's too bad the occasion isn't more pleasant.

[Rob Pincus]

Aside from the nonsense, there is actually some good, productive stuff to think about here.

Valid... I probably over-chastised a little... and, to be honest, I only started reading at about page 4, which I guess is where a lot of the drama started.

Maybe some people from the forum will actually come out to the courses I'm teaching out in Cali on Oct and we can have some face-to-face constructive interaction !

[ramzar]

Maybe some people from the forum will actually come out to the courses I'm teaching out in Cali on Oct and we can have some face-to-face constructive interaction !

I see that you're personally teaching the Advanced Pistol Handling course on Oct. 17-18th in the Sacramento area. Not only am I busy that weekend but I'd rather take courses in Southern California. So, I signed up for the Combat Focus Shooting newsletter just now and will look for you down here in 2013.

[ZombieTactics]

If safety, weapon handling skills, marksmanship (just to name a few) aren't important core items in any FIREARMS instruction program, then I stand corrected and have been horribly misled.

More to the point, nobody has actually suggested that those particulars are unimportant. You can twist words or context to make it appear so, but that would be wrong.

Perhaps it's just a simple misunderstanding on your part. I'd hate to think that your motivations are disingenuous. Please don't make it appear otherwise by posting some out-of-context quote accompanied by a slanted analysis or snarky come-back.

It's been a contentious thread, and perhaps it's time to start actually discussing things more and insulting each other less.

[JRV]

If safety, weapon handling skills, marksmanship (just to name a few) aren't important core items in any FIREARMS instruction program, then I stand corrected and have been horribly misled.

Since I assume you're referring to Mike I'm going to step in. I have personally had Mike on my line as a student before he was a CFS instructor. He did nothing unsafe.

I've also been on the range when Mike was teaching with Rob to become active. His instruction was spot on, he has a great understanding of CFS methodology on an instructor level and ran a safe line.

Could the videos he posted been a little more concise? Yes, but that is why I had a conversation with him and he pulled the videos down. He's a new CFS instructor and he's excited about the program. He got a little over zealous and posted a video to show a concept but didn't dissecting the video from a critical stand point. It happens.

[Bobby Hated]

Please tell me the name of where you work. I want to make sure that I never accidently sign up for a course there. I do not deal well with such egotistical and unprofessional people and I certainly have zero desire to pay money to be around you.

ditto

[Bobby Hated]

I don't think many in this thread would really argue with you on this point. Some of the back-n-forth in this thread is unfortunately a carry over from another thread, where a couple of people seemed to suggest that competition ONLY was all anyone needed. The context here seem more reasonable and productive overall, despite some of the *****ing and sniping. (IMHO)

you definately got it twisted up there bud.

this all started with JRV suggesting that competition is worthless for SD.

a point he continues to argue page after page after page after page.

(for the record you are a much more reasonable person than he is so i hate to tar you with the same feathers)

[Bobby Hated]

Quick question John Hackleman coached Chuck Liddell to the level of being a UFC champion. Has John ever fought in the UFC? Has he ever fought for the UFC belt? Tony Blauer has never fought in the UFC or been a SF guy. Yet he trains SF guys, UFC fighters, civilians and etc.

So the thinking of you NEED to be a teams guy, LEO, super ninja and etc to teach something is seriously flawed. I have met plenty of switched on team guys, LEO, contractors and etc that couldn't teach worth a *****. Just because you can do such and such doesn't mean you can articulate the concepts to someone at an instructor level.

FAIL!! The UFC DID NOT EXIST when hackleman was an active fighter.

hackleman did compete throughout his teens and 20's, winning multiple state and regional Golden Gloves competitions, he fought on the US Army boxing team in the early 80's and competed in many full contact karate competitions in the 70's and 80's both before and after his stint in the Army. him and his gym were regulars on the full contact/shotokan circuit for years when i was a little kid. (i was training kenpo with ed parker at the time)

however your example does prove our point that those who have competed in a combat sport make the best coaches. true the best competitors dont necessarily make the best coaches, but all the good coaches are former competitors.

[Bobby Hated]

it is sometimes important to simply accept that fact and let people decide for themselves whether or not they are interested in hearing our perspective.

-Rob

we're happy to hear your opinion, and that of your outspoken disciple.

we're also free to disagree if you or your proxy fails to convince us.

the argument that practicing in competition doesnt improve our ability in a real life situation, fails to convince a number of us.

sorry.

-Bob

[brian5271]

you definately got it twisted up there bud.

this all started with JRV suggesting that competition is worthless for SD.

a point he continues to argue page after page after page after page.

(for the record you are a much more reasonable person than he is so i hate to tar you with the same feathers)

This is what irritated me so bad. I am not at all suggesting that competition can replace, or even is a substitute for training; but it does have value for self defense.

Mr. Pincus – Thank you for joining the conversation. I would really be interested in your opinion on competition. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about it replacing training; more like somebody else’s analogy of it being like a boxer hitting a heavy bag, or my earlier analogy of it beilng like a baseball player hitting balls off of a tee or in cages for practice.

[ramzar]

Mr. Pincus – Thank you for joining the conversation. I would really be interested in your opinion on competition. Please keep in mind that I am not talking about it replacing training; more like somebody else’s analogy of it being like a boxer hitting a heavy bag, or my earlier analogy of it beilng like a baseball player hitting balls off of a tee or in cages for practice.

Pincus did express his viewpoint on competitive shooting in post# 210:

In regard to the competition thing, I would say that my personal position is that there are better ways to spend your limited training time & resources than entering competitions and that if you are actually trying to win competitions (or "get the best score you can"), you are probably compromising your technique/gear/tactics to suit the competition rules.

[brian5271]

Pincus did express his viewpoint on competitive shooting in post# 210:

[ZombieTactics]

In response to my observation of the said instructors admitted deficiencies at a course I was attending:

To qoute "I understand your observation. It is a fair question. The answer probably lies in an aspect of our training methodology which goes against tradition, which has been cited earlier in the thread: How well someone can shoot has nothing to do with how well they can teach others to shoot, so I don't even test my instructor candidates in regard to their ability to shoot or demo anything "at speed".. honestly, I think it is pretty obvious that an observer can learn a lot more from a slow demo than a blindingly fast one. The latter is just entertainment."

That appears to be precisely in context.
I was addressing the issues listed....

No, you did precisely what I suggested you might. You took how well someone (who was not even an instructor at the time) performed in some class and switched context entirely by conflating that with what he might teach or consider important in teaching a course ... further associating this with CFS: "... if safety, weapon handling skills, marksmanship (just to name a few) aren't important core items in any FIREARMS instruction program ..."

See what you did there? I hope you do, because I'd hate to think you're just doing this kind of thing to stir up an argument.

[ZombieTactics]

... this all started with JRV suggesting that competition is worthless for SD. ...

Well firstly, that's a notion I disagree with. As I suggested earlier, I'm betting that if you sat JRV down for a cup of coffee, you'd find that the resistance to the possibility of competition having value is a lot lower than it might appear in this thread. Rob never said comp was "worthless", but simply offered his professional opinion that there are better ways to spend your time/money if your focus is strictly SD. Maybe that's just me wanting to be peacemaker, but I'd bet money on it.

I'd also note (as I previously did) that some of the rancor comes from the perception that some comp shooters believe that competition in the end-all/be-all in terms of measuring likely SD performance. That's a carry-over from another thread. JRV is acerbic and combative, but the blame cannot be said to be entirely his. This is especially so when some appear to participate in these discussion for no other reason than to stir up trouble.

A lot of this is really just "my dad can beat up your dad", which is unfortunate.

[Bobby Hated]

Well firstly, that's a notion I disagree with. As I suggested earlier, I'm betting that if you sat JRV down for a cup of coffee, you'd find that the resistance to the possibility of competition having value is a lot lower than it might appear in this thread. Rob never said comp was "worthless", but simply offered his professional opinion that there are better ways to spend your time/money if your focus is strictly SD. Maybe that's just me wanting to be peacemaker, but I'd bet money on it.

I'd also note (as I previously did) that some of the rancor comes from the perception that some comp shooters believe that competition in the end-all/be-all in terms of measuring likely SD performance. That's a carry-over from another thread. JRV is acerbic and combative, but the blame cannot be said to be entirely his. This is especially so when some appear to participate in these discussion for no other reason than to stir up trouble.

A lot of this is really just "my dad can beat up your dad", which is unfortunate.

well my perception of their position is not only that competition is worthless, but that its actually a negative because it builds "bad habits" that will carry over to a SD situation. so i cant join you on that one. i dont agree with that perspective at all.

but as to the 2nd point, i do not know any comp shooters who consider competition alone a sufficient training regimen for SD, and i dont see any posts here that say as much. please quote them if i am wrong.