Training Method

[ramzar]

Every competition shooter that I'm aware of that has gone through CFS counter-ambush training, has either reduced their competition time or quit competing.

From my observations, if your core training is competitive shooting you'll see your self defense tactics suffer. This is more true of IPSC/USPSA than IDPA. Again, no training regimen is an end all. It's all about balance...

[ZombieTactics]

From my observations, if your core training is competitive shooting you'll see your self defense tactics suffer. This is more true of IPSC/USPSA than IDPA. ...

What - from your experience - would be the primary problem areas in terms of technique and/or tactics?

Again, no training regimen is an end all. It's all about balance ...

Agreed.

[ramzar]

What - from your experience - would be the primary problem areas in terms of technique and/or tactics?

In what context?

Generally, in the mixed bag of training a preponderance / favoring of particular curriculum can have a negative effect on another. It depends on quantity. We are, after all, creatures of habit. Again, the general answer is balance and by nature it's subjective.

[ramzar]

Some truisms in this funny video clip. Competition will definitely improve your marksmanship, weapons handling and movement. Just don't overdo it and expect it not to have a negative effect on self defense tactics.

[ZombieTactics]

In what context? ...

Well, in my limited experience I've seen competition guys do some funny things. I observed a FoF exercise where one such guy dropped his magazine during a reload, for instance, and he sort of "quit" ... like he had "oops, procedural error" going through his head or something. He really thought the exercise was over at that point, or there should be a "do over". The instructor yelling "stay in the fight" seemed to puzzle him.

That's chuckle-worthy in retrospect, but it's roughly along the lines of the kind of thing I've seen. Given my limited perspective, I'd appreciate the thoughts of someone like yourself who participates in competition, as I intend to wade into it a bit.

[ramzar]

Well, in my limited experience I've seen competition guys do some funny things. I observed a FoF exercise where one such guy dropped his magazine during a reload, for instance, and he sort of "quit" ... like he had "oops, procedural error" going through his head or something. He really thought the exercise was over at that point, or there should be a "do over". The instructor yelling "stay in the fight" seemed to puzzle him.

That's chuckle-worthy in retrospect, but it's roughly along the lines of the kind of thing I've seen. Given my limited perspective, I'd appreciate the thoughts of someone like yourself who participates in competition, as I intend to wade into it a bit.

If your preponderant objective is to enhance your marksmanship, weapons handling and movement using competitive shooting and you want to continue with "best" tactical / defensive practices then I suggest you treat competitive shooting as a practice session and not a game. Don't be there to get maximum points. Follow your normal defensive reloading, use of cover and so forth even though you'll be slower. By exposing yourself to new scenarios within the competitive match you'll climb the ladder. Bottom line, it's a balancing act and only you will know how far to push the limits.

[JRV]

The most common reload for any situation is to bring your pistol in so that it's just underneath your eyes so that you can momentarily see the mag well for faster and more efficient reload while keeping your eyes on the threat.

You need to go google: tachypsychia aka the distortion of the perception of time.

After you do some research and some critical thinking on looking at your gun during a reload in a fight NOT a gun game. If you still don't understand why looking at your gun is a BAD IDEA during a reload, I'm sure Firesnake or I could explain it.

Not to mention having a gun up in your face during a reload is a good way to get it smashed off your face in a real critical incident or FonF training not a gun GAME.

[JRV]

[QUOTE=The Virus;9038648]

Really?

Care to elaborate or cite some sources?

Elaborate on what exactly?

[JRV]

After you do some research and some critical thinking on looking at your gun during a reload in a fight NOT a gun game. If you still don't understand why looking at your gun is a BAD IDEA during a reload, I'm sure Firesnake or I could explain it.

Not to mention having a gun up in your face during a reload is a good way to get it smashed off your face in a real critical incident or FonF training not a gun GAME.

Like I said "plain & simple do some research and critical thinking" the information is out there and can't be disputed. Google: tachypsychia aka the distortion of the perception of time.

I've seen videos of FonF of guys getting guns smashed off their faces, spoke with trainers who have done said thing to students during scenarios and I've done the same to people during sim gun FonF scenarios.

But there is no denying the science behind the body's natural reactions that happen internally. Before you say it, No you can not out train the body's natural reactions by shooting competitions.

[brian5271]

There is another aspect to the competition shooting that I think is being overlooked some here, and much more so on the “other thread” that this was being discussed.

Training cost money; Sometimes a substantial amount of money.

I cannot afford to take training classes on a regular basis. I can however shoot competitions at least once, and sometimes twice a month. These competitions are the only opportunity I have to practice rapid fire, multiple targets, reactive targets, shooting from cover, etc.

So am I supposed to believe that sitting on my but twirling my thumbs every other Saturday is going to prepare me for a self defense situation better than actually going out and shooting in a competition?

I have been shooting since my dad taught me to when I was 10 years old. He used to take me with his friends, many of whom were police officers, and I learned quite a bit from him and them. That was over 30 years ago. Most of my life I have had friends in various departments that I would go out and shoot with regularly. I have had the opportunity to do limited training with a police department here in Southern California, including some SWAT training (very limited – just got lucky and had the opportunity to do this a couple of times).

I am not an “operator”, I don’t have an “insert your acronym here” t-shirt, I am not a swat guy, I don’t carry a gun for a living. I don’t pretend to be on the same level with these guys, but I am an enthusiast that has sent countless rounds down range and has had opportunities that many have not.

After all my years of shooting, I did not start shooting competitively until about a year ago. Since that time I have just about tripled the amount of ammunition that I go through and my gun skills have increased tenfold. It really has made a big difference.

My real point is this – It is my opinion that you will be much better prepared for a self defense situation involving a gun by doing competitions 10 – 15 times a year than by doing training (FOF or any other) once a year.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that training is not worth it; just the opposite, it is invaluable. Take the opportunity for formal training whenever possible. But to suggest to somebody that cannot afford consistent training that shooting in competitions will make him less ready for self defense is misleading at best, and really borders on recklessness for a professional trainer.

Just my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

[ramzar]

After you do some research and some critical thinking on looking at your gun during a reload in a fight NOT a gun game. If you still don't understand why looking at your gun is a BAD IDEA during a reload, I'm sure Firesnake or I could explain it.

Not to mention having a gun up in your face during a reload is a good way to get it smashed off your face in a real critical incident or FonF training not a gun GAME.

Is it the opinion of all CFS instructors that the only viable reload (and slide release) for self defense is the CFS way? I guess all my instructors the past 5+ years have been wrong. These include ITTS (Scotty Reitz, Rick Kosiar, Bill Casey), TFTT (Max Joseph, Jason Bunker), FOG, Chris Costa, TAC-1 (Lou Salseda, Tom Luna), Blackwater (Bill Go), Jason Falla, Jeff Gonzales, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, TigerSwan, Mike Pannone, Pat McNamara, Stan Lee (TASC), Covered 6 (Bob Brown), Northern Red (JD Potynsky), etc.

[JRV]

Is it the opinion of all CFS instructors that the only viable reload (and slide release) for self defense is the CFS way? I guess all my instructors the past 5+ years have been wrong. These include ITTS (Scotty Reitz, Rick Kosiar, Bill Casey), TFTT (Max Joseph, Jason Bunker), FOG, Chris Costa, TAC-1 (Lou Salseda), Blackwater (Bill Go), Jason Falla, Jeff Gonzales, Larry Vickers, Ken Hackathorn, TigerSwan, Mike Pannone, Pat McNamara, Covered 6 (Bob Brown), etc.

HMMMM I dunno we all teach the same program & same concepts. So you tell me.

Now should I post every course & trainer I have taken a course with? Or should I post CFS instructors backgrounds and what they've done?

No because it's unimportant. You paid money to attend a course or two. What have you earned? Any instructor certificates? How many people have you trained? How many civilians? How many military or LE groups have YOU trained?

[JRV]

Oh now I see, is this CFS dogma? I'm unsure why you keep asking people to google tachypsychia. Do MMA fighters out train there bodies natural reactions?

Do MMA fighters know they are getting in a fight? Or are they in the cage to play patty cake?

So the body's natural reactions to being caught off guard (ambushed) are instinctive. You can't out train instincts.

LOL at CFS dogma, no CFS actually evolves and changes unlike most programs.

[The Virus]

I wish you the best of luck.

[JRV]

I wish you the best of luck.

THANK YOU