Training Method

[JRV]

The script must have run out.....

You're just so ninja that you can't grasp new concepts. Keep doing what you're doing & TNTSADOYWTTPL

Just curious how often do you teach? How many LEO, military, civilians, HLS officers & etc? Are you going to dance around this post too?

[FireSnake77]

Mike,

You just described the effects of epinephrine (AKA, adrenaline). This is the hormone release by the adrenal medulla during a fight or flight response.





.

Partially true. I was referring to the initiation by the limbic system that initiates an increase in dopamine and corticosteroids, corticotropin‐releasing hormone, etc (flinch-startle response moment)

This cocktail triggers the adrenal glands to produce epinephrine (fight or flight moment)

The two are two different moments of a physiological chain of events.

The discrepancy between what you see (turbo eyes) and what you perceive (regular unleaded cognitive brain) causes you to speed up because you feel like you're moving to slow. This is how looking at your reload while under stress creates the potential for missing the mag well. And that's how tachypsychia effects your reload.

Mike

PS
I'm going offline for the night. Talk to you all in the AM.

[USM0083]

Thank you sir for a productive discussion.

Are you referring to the concept of lateral movement, or the way that the students were moving? I teach 'em to move naturally whether that's a lateral sprint to simulate moving to cover/concealment, or quickly lateral step. It's usually the pre-trained people that ended up shuffling.

It's the way they are moving. I've done a lot of FoF at FLETC using Sims, and IMO the ones that try dodge around like that miss, and miss badly.

So if I understand correctly, the first mag is a warm up using a predetermined number of shots coupled with increasing time constraints, then by the 2nd mag the targets turn away randomly to vary the string of fire, and appear randomly to vary when a threat is recognized? Can the targets turn up at random locations as well? (ie, lane 3,4, and 7 turn to face the shooter) I think this would add the variable of where to shoot. I think we are in the same path in that the unpredictability is a key variable in training defensive firearms.

I can turn one specific target only, or even/odds.

My main concern with these type of drills, is if the LEO perceives a pistol, should he not shoot? If in that moment he perceived a threat and didn't recognize the good guy, is he wrong about taking the shot? He is definitely wrong in his perception, but is the action wrong? It would be great to start a new thread trouble shooting this dilemma. If we can come up with a solution, that would be awesome.

This drill is simply to get the shooter to think about their environment, rather than shooting at a gun. I do not use the command "gun" as a prompt to fire. There are too many cases of off duty or undercover officers responding to a call and getting shot and killed. As a LEO you have to take in the totality of the the circumstances and environment, NOT just one aspect (you see a person with a gun.)

Nice. I'm assuming it's a range that limits lateral movement? My only concern here is if a second or third threat is recognized after shooting the first one, isn't it safer to get off the X and then take the shot?

Range limitations. I had between 7 and 10 shooters doing this at the same time, and I was working with time constraints. This type of training is balanced by FoF training, and FATS training.

Copy. I understand what you mean by OODA. Check out this article examining OODA and let me know what you think:

http://www.imakenews.com/valhalla/e_article002451505.cfm

Talk soon breda,
Mike

I will check it out.

EDIT: Good article!

[JRV]

Wow! Where have I ever claimed to be an instructor?
Where have I made any claims about my level of expertise in any field?
And apparently if I spend $1500 and 5 days learning marketing techniques and sales pitches I can teach CFS too.
Have you ever heard the term McDojo?

LOL you really are a joke. You have nothing of any use to share. Are you jealous you can't make a living teaching? Are you jealous a guy like me will be in Vegas this weekend teaching two 1-day courses to 30+ students while your stuck in your moms basement eating fritos, being negative and contributing nothing all while thinking how awesome you are?

You have only talked crap and haven't shared one positive concept or positive anything. All you've done is talk ish.

[The Virus]

You certainly do present yourself as a professional.
What leads you to believe I have any desire to be a firearms instructor?

How do you extract me thinking how awesome I am from anything I have posted?
I do enjoy fritos from time to time.

[brian5271]

LOL you really are a joke. You have nothing of any use to share. Are you jealous you can't make a living teaching? Are you jealous a guy like me will be in Vegas this weekend teaching two 1-day courses to 30+ students while your stuck in your moms basement eating fritos, being negative and contributing nothing all while thinking how awesome you are?

You have only talked crap and haven't shared one positive concept or positive anything. All you've done is talk ish.

Please tell me the name of where you work. I want to make sure that I never accidently sign up for a course there. I do not deal well with such egotistical and unprofessional people and I certainly have zero desire to pay money to be around you.

[ramzar]

Unlike most SD instructors you will never see Rob carry during a course. He doesn't demo every drill. It's not about what he can do or not do, it's about what he can teach. I don't carry ever during a course. I take a students gun to demo the critical incident reload & the shooting in motion drill. I rarely will demo anything else, unless I need to for the sake of a student.

Personally, I like to see the instructors demo almost every drill. Firstly, it demonstrates exactly how the student should perform the drill. Secondly, it impresses me more seeing that the instructor is a capable shooter.

I don't understand why drills are NOT demoed. I think it's critical.

Borrowing a student's pistol and permanently borrowing his ammo is not a good thing unless there are issues with the student's weapon.

[Rob Pincus]

You kids shouldn't play so rough, somebody's gonna start crying.

First: I fricken hate code names... seriously, Mike "Firesnakeeater77" or whatever? It took me half a page to figure out who the hell you were...

Second: What is the point here? Did someone have a question about what a vehicle tactics course has to do with teaching intuitive defensive shooting skills? Maybe, I can clear that up:

Nothing.

Did someone want to know what having the personal integrity to see one's own weaknesses as motivation to get better might have to do with the ability to teach others and motivate them to improve?

Maybe Everything.

*********

Was there anything else going on besides male genitalia measuring ??

Didn't think so...

*********

All of you should take a Time Out and think about why you come to this forum and why you are supposed to be discussing these topics... including "my guys".
(Except maybe HK35, who seems to have a good idea what the hell he was talking about, assuming he wasn't just trying to bust balls and sound like a know-it-all.).

-RJP

[The Virus]

Good to have you join in Mr Pincus.
The question wasnt regarding the course curriculum but the poor weapon handling skills, multiple safety violations and seemingly poor marksmanship of someone who is now one of your instructors.
I find in difficult to believe anyone could go from what seemed to be a novice to certified to instruct others in all of the aspects I listed, curriculum specifics aside in less than 6 months.

While the tone of this thread became less than ideal, I stand by my observation.

All spawned by a question of slide release technique in another thread. Which led to the creation of this thread by the said instructor.

[ramzar]

[B][COLOR="Red"]

Was there anything else going on besides male genitalia measuring ??

Didn't think so...

*********

All of you should take a Time Out and think about why you come to this forum and why you are supposed to be discussing these topics... including "my guys".
(Except maybe HK35, who seems to have a good idea what the hell he was talking about, assuming he wasn't just trying to bust balls and sound like a know-it-all.).

In one broad brushstroke you denigrated and nullified every post of every poster in this thread (except possibly HK35 and even he's suspect).

[elSquid]

In one broad brushstroke you denigrated and nullified every post of every poster in this thread (except possibly HK35 and even he's suspect).

SILENCE! For he hath not come to teach, but rather rebuke! Lo, his ire flows deep and wide as does the mighty river Nile...

-- Michael

[Rob Pincus]

"ramzar",

No, not really.. just the posters more interested in genetalia measuring than anything else... I think you will see that the last couple of pages only had a handful of participants and not much productivity. I doubt that ZombieTactics, for one, feels like my post was totally out of line.
If the shoe fits, feel denigrated... if not, try to get past the drama and get back to what matters.
Personally, I think a lot of the recent posts are pretty easily nullified... and should be.

****

"virus"

I understand your observation. It is a fair question. The answer probably lies in an aspect of our training methodology which goes against tradition, which has been cited earlier in the thread: How well someone can shoot has nothing to do with how well they can teach others to shoot, so I don't even test my instructor candidates in regard to their ability to shoot or demo anything "at speed".. honestly, I think it is pretty obvious that an observer can learn a lot more from a slow demo than a blindingly fast one. The latter is just entertainment.

Yes, some people like to study under people who can perform... but that doesn't make it a truism that people MUST be able to outperform their students. Some of my peers at the top of the industry really do think they need to outshoot their students (thankfully, few, though)... I guess I Wonder if that means they hold their best students back?? or if they will retire from teaching as age takes it toll on their skills?? Or, will they conveniently join me in the confidence that my ability to make OTHERS better is my strength as a teacher, not my ability to perform a set of physical skills. Some people like to learn from people who can tell war stories.... some teenagers would prefer to go to a Michael Jordan fantasy camp and take pictures with a star than go to a skills development camp with coaches they've never heard of from the top colleges in the country. Luckily, the private sector firearms industry offers both types of instructor. No doubt, Michael Jordan can convey information to those fans, but he doesn't make a living doing it and he didn't make his career one of teaching. There are some GREAT Teachers that have BTDT as well, Kyle Lamb and Craig Douglas are two friends with impressive operational resumes and the gift for teaching. Both are great to have, but only one is important to improve others, the other is a marketing tool.

During CFS Instructor Development, we require a 90% or better on a closed book test of knowledge and a successful teaching demonstration on randomly selected topics from the curriculum on the final afternoon/evening of what it usually a 60 hr week (FWIW, over the last few years, as our prep/study materials have improved and the course lengthen to 5 days, the latter test is the one that more people fail)... after someone has taken at least one CFS course as an end user. Then, we require at least one successful team teaching experience with a senior instructor to become an Active Certified Instructor (to address one of your more spurious assertions, there is about an hour spent on marketing during CFSID and no related test questions.). We constantly update the program and our active instructors and they have standards they have to meet remain active. That is the process that Mike signed on for after one of his mentor's (one of my lead instructors), an active duty Navy Chief, recommended CFS as a means for him to improve his skills.
The program has been integrated or adopted by many LE Agencies, Military units and private companies and we have a lot of reason to believe in the program and it's efficacy. We have recently begun the process of being ISO9000 certified and a professional ISO Auditor has assured me that we met 95% of the requirements with our own standards and procedures, prior to any 'extra' effort. As noted earlier, we have about a 50% cert rate historically, with a diverse group of instructor candidates including guys like Mike who are relatively new to teaching firearms, guys like JRV with no military experience, Navy SQT Instructors and members of Army SF... and I've conducted extensive instructor development training at requests from LE Agencies with 6 officers up to the 2nd largest in the country, many of which have cert'd CFS Instructors as well. I'm a regular instructor at SWAT Round Up International, I've taught several times at the IALEFI Conference and I'll be the key note speaker at the Georgia Law Enforcement Firearms Instructor Conference next week. I'm not invited to provide training to those other instructors because I can tell war stories or because my resume as an 'operator' is impressive.

It may be a little anti-climatic, but you either get that or you don't. If you don't, then we're not the program for you... that's okay. Maybe you do get it, but Mike's not the instructor for you... that's okay too. We've got over 30 currently active status instructors and about 100 that have certified over the past decade. They range from SWAT/SF/SEAL types to shooting enthusiasts to local cops to a full time dog groomer. I believe that they can all help people better understand and develop defensive shooting skills... if that is what they are interested in.

I'm supposed to be working on a book on Counter Ambush Training Methods that tens of thousands of people will be reading over the next few years, but I found it worth an hour of my time to contribute to this thread that maybe 50 people will read because I take the reputation of our program seriously. It is unorthodox, so it is sometimes important to simply accept that fact and let people decide for themselves whether or not they are interested in hearing our perspective.

-Rob

[USM0083]

Mr. Pincus,

Thank you for taking the time to respond.

I have one of your DVDs, put out through the Second Amendment Foundation. I found it to be very well done, with valid and useful concepts shown. A few things I don't agree with, but they are very minor and can be chalked up to philosophical differences. Some of your concepts I have used in my training programs.

I think much of the arguments that have spawned in this thread is due to the tone your instructors have taken. Example: saying that you can derive nothing from competitive shooting competitions.

Some of the videos that your instructors have posted here show the basic concepts that you demonstrate in the DVD I have, but the implementation of the concept comes out poorly.

Get training, and get training from different instructors with different training concepts, THEN apply it to your circumstance.

[ramzar]

Rob,

Performing a drill at full speed and demoing it are two different things. One has the sizzle the other has the practical application of making it crystal clear to the student how it's supposed to be done the CFS way. So, do you guys demo your drills and if not why?

If you could concisely explain the reasoning for the CFS reload technique that would also help.

Thanks,
Ramin

[Rob Pincus]

"USM",

Agreed.

In regard to the competition thing, I would say that my personal position is that there are better ways to spend your limited training time & resources than entering competitions and that if you are actually trying to win competitions (or "get the best score you can"), you are probably compromising your technique/gear/tactics to suit the competition rules.

Thanks.

****

Ramin,

Seriously, I am headed back to work... but, quickly, over the years, I have found that very few things actually benefit greatly from demos. Training time is always limited. Demo'ing my ability to perform a drill, I find totally useless (unless I want to impress students for some silly reason)... I find it important to EXPLAIN a drill and make sure students understand it. At the end of the day, if you have to choose between watching someone do a drill OR shooting a drill yourself, which will benefit you more? Ultimately, that is the choice, because training time is limited. I'd rather teach more and let my students shoot more and skip demos with a low value. Other things are very important to demo, but, as stated, demonstrating them slowly is most important. Our reload technique is one of this those things. Today I did about 15 demos of various presentation techniques (in slow motion, without actually firing a single shot) during an advanced pistol handling class that deals with unorthodox positions. Students generally don't have any clear idea what they are supposed to do without demos of the actual motions that are most efficient in these areas, so the time for the demo is well worth it. But, if I bothered to take a shot at the end of the presentations, that would require me to only demo at angles that I could point into a berm AND for students to wear eyes/ears through the demo... both of which detract from my ability to teach efficiently and the student's ability to learn as efficiently as possible. So, we may have some semantic issues here... there are plenty of "demos" in our program, but NO Demonstrations of our shooting ability... in fact, when I do shoot in a class (unless checking a firearms sights for a student, etc), I rarely shoot at a target.... for example, when shooting to get to slide lock and slo-mo demo a reload.

The reload technique that we teach (in the high compressed ready position, done without looking, utilizing an overhand rack to get the gun back into battery) is taught because we have found it to be the most reliable method over the widest set of plausible circumstances.

-Rob