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[NorthBay Shooter]

The one thing that is the same with all this discussion on FS vs competition training, is that good shooters are good shooters. The best guys at FS, the combat masters, are really accurate and really fast. The best guys at competition, the GM's, are really accurate and really fast. Is there some difference sure, but in the end, those guys could pick up almost any gun and out shoot 99% of the regular folks.

Vinnie, based on your current goals, I do think there are some learnings to take from some of the better competitive shooters. Watch some reloads. Or watch some drills like 4 aces. It will open your eyes. I know it did mine. Here is Ben shooting 4 Aces. And Vinnie, just for you, this is back when he was shooting a Beretta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7KlhYj4UUo

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Speaking of different training/focus...

I saw a Jerry Miculek video last week where he makes a comment about how competition and defensive shooting are different in that; in a defensive situation you are always watching what the other person(s) are doing because you are ONLY shooting to stop the attack. If they break off, run at the sight of your gun, etc. you will not be pulling the trigger. In a competition, you KNOW you are going to shoot the gun so you can focus more on your sights, getting the gun on target and the shot off quickly.

Any thoughts (agree/disagree) and how this might influence the training being provided?

I'm not going to argue and disagree with Jerry Miculek. Makes sense.

Kind of similar to the story they tell at FS when learning to clear a Type 1 malfunction with tap/rack. Many places teach the tap, rack, fire. An officer followed a suspect into a hallway where a gunfight ensued. Officer experienced a Type 1 malfunction. cleared it with a tap, rack then fired. Within that time an innocent bystander stepped into the hall and was subsequently shot by the officer because it was engrained in his bran to immediately shoot once he cleared the malfunction. This is why they teach you to tap, rack then decided if you need to shoot or not, and not automatically let off a shot once you fix the problem or clear the malfunction.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

The one thing that is the same with all this discussion on FS vs competition training, is that good shooters are good shooters. The best guys at FS, the combat masters, are really accurate and really fast. The best guys at competition, the GM's, are really accurate and really fast. Is there some difference sure, but in the end, those guys could pick up almost any gun and out shoot 99% of the regular folks.

Vinnie, based on your current goals, I do think there are some learnings to take from some of the better competitive shooters. Watch some reloads. Or watch some drills like 4 aces. It will open your eyes. I know it did mine. Here is Ben shooting 4 Aces. And Vinnie, just for you, this is back when he was shooting a Beretta. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7KlhYj4UUo

I've watched tons of videos of competitive shooters. I've probably watched most of JM's videos as well on YouTube. I'll say it again, I have absolutely nothing against competitive shooters. I'm a novice here and on the grand scale really know nothing at this point. I'm just starting out a year into it. I'll say it once more...I have nothing against competitive shooting. But with my current situation with work and school Front Sight just works for me tight now, especially with a Commander membership. Once I have more time and my situation changes who knows, but for now this works and I really like it. I know it's not the be all end all for training. What I do have issue with (and I'll say it again because it seems like it's not really sinking in for some) is when one person comes along and starts saying their way is the best and only way, then proceeds to insult others who have a different opinion. That's really my only issue here. Whenever someone takes that stance on anything it raises a red flag and I'll immediately be suspicious of that person and will usually steer clear of anything else they say after that.

[NorthBay Shooter]

I've watched tons of videos of competitive shooters. I've probably watched most of JM's videos as well on YouTube. I'll say it again, I have absolutely nothing against competitive shooters. I'm a novice here and on the grand scale really know nothing at this point. I'm just starting out a year into it. I'll say it once more...I have nothing against competitive shooting. But with my current situation with work and school Front Sight just works for me tight now, especially with a Commander membership. Once I have more time and my situation changes who knows, but for now this works and I really like it. I know it's not the be all end all for training. What I do have issue with (and I'll say it again because it seems like it's not really sinking in for some) is when one person comes along and starts saying their way is the best and only way, then proceeds to insult others who have a different opinion. That's really my only issue here. Whenever someone takes that stance on anything it raises a red flag and I'll immediately be suspicious of that person and will usually steer clear of anything else they say after that.

We are in agreement. There is no one best way for everyone. FS is very cool, and I have learned tons from the instructors and the other students every time I have been there.

If I recall correctly, you are in the East Bay, correct? If so, and you have a free Sat or Sun sometime and want to come to Richmond, PM me. There is always something going on each weekend. USPSA 2 times a month, IDPA every other month (I think), Steel Challenge, Cowboy, Rimfire. Or just go come out for a Saturday practice. It is one of the only places you can bring your gear and shoot from the holster, with controlled pairs.

However, be forewarned, if you get hooked, you are going to need lots of ammo..

[rodralig]

The one thing that is the same with all this discussion on FS vs competition training, is that good shooters are good shooters. The best guys at FS, the combat masters, are really accurate and really fast. The best guys at competition, the GM's, are really accurate and really fast. Is there some difference sure, but in the end, those guys could pick up almost any gun and out shoot 99% of the regular folks.

Good shooters are still good shooters regardless of the gun.

I'd love to DG the 4DDHG, but I need to really up my skills to get there.

I am planning if time (and ammo permits!) to put a twist the next time I try the 4DDHG test - either use a sub-compact (Glock 26 or the M&P Shield)... Or shoot left-handed... @Beanz even suggested to try it with a revolver...




Okay - back after a 2-day hiatus from CG due to some lcoal #pewPew. My first experience to rent out a private bay to try out some random drills!?! Drove out 60-mi one-way to Route 66... Dang! If I have access to these ranges, my evolution as a shooter might have been more progressive. If I win either the Mega Millions or the Power Ball lotteries, a private range is in the ToDos!

And yesterday was a local class on the rifle as applied in urban scenarios. Instructor is a military veteran (UMSC, Recon, Range, etc.) and a counter-terrorist/executive protection SME. Good class!

That said - my final take on the recent back-and-forths...

Disclaimer - I have a stake with both sides, as some in this forums do. Again, I am a student of Front Sight and recognize the value it brings to a shooter's evolution. But I am also a competitive shooter that understands its "nuances," that obviously leads to misconceptions to those outside the sport (which, I, too, was guilty off when I started).


Yes, it was ignorant for an individual to force their way of training/learning on another. But it was also ignorant for the opposing side to argue against something that the person clearly doesn't understand. I would have preferred to either quiet down/relax and ignore the other person rather than a going back-n-forth. See how my thread with @Corbin Dallas went? It was all cordial and amicable... We ended up with a "try it first before making any judgements?" We are all gentlemen here. No?

Like I said "when Type A (strong) personalities collide."

Oh, yes - we are in the internet. There are no winners here...



Oh well - again - back to the regular programming... Need to get back to Front Sight! Any President member here are aware of how long the waiting list for privates are? I still have to schedule my first private class. Just upgraded my membership heading into the pandemic.


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[SG29736]

FS or other training can be great for a shooter. Training and shooting matches can be great too. Here's the difference I see a lot. A shooter goes to FS or elswhere and gets good training until his next class. What percentage of these shooters go home and have access to really practice what they have learned? Many are stuck with a lane at an indoor range. Of course some do have a place to practice and that's great, but how many?

Shooters that do some training and compete can also practice on their own, often on their clubs bays. Plus they can shoot matches 1,2,3 or more times a month with unique layouts, walls, barricades, ports with a few moving targets thrown in. Full targets, partial, no shoot hostage type targets etc. Targets scored, penalties earned, timed. That's a lot of range time compared to a lot of shooters I know who only do training classes because of lack of access to get more shooting in.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

FS or other training can be great for a shooter. Training and shooting matches can be great too. Here's the difference I see a lot. A shooter goes to FS or elswhere and gets good training until his next class. What percentage of these shooters go home and have access to really practice what they have learned? Many are stuck with a lane at an indoor range. Of course some do have a place to practice and that's great, but how many?

Shooters that do some training and compete can also practice on their own, often on their clubs bays. Plus they can shoot matches 1,2,3 or more times a month with unique layouts, walls, barricades, ports with a few moving targets thrown in. Full targets, partial, no shoot hostage type targets etc. Targets scored, penalties earned, timed. That's a lot of range time compared to a lot of shooters I know who only do training classes because of lack of access to get more shooting in.

I don't even bother going to the range anymore. Can't draw from a holster there, so I just do a lot of dry practice at home. Not saying it's ideal, but there are plenty of things that you can do during dry practice that are arguably as much, and possibly even more beneficial than just shooting at a target. Drawing from the holster, presenting the firearm to the target, really dialing in your sight sight picture, sight alignment and trigger control, practicing clearing different types of malfunctions, practicing different types of reloads, etc. have benefitted me tremendously, and that's been proven each time I go back to Front Sight because I have improved tremendously each time.

I've seen a lot of people who claim to have been shooting guns all their lives yet don't even know the differences between the different types of malfunctions. Throw them a Type 3 and they're all thumbs. Some of these students might even score perfect or near perfect on the shooting portion of the test them completely blow it during the malfunction drills. There were several examples of this in my last class, including two police officers (but those two actually didn't shoot that well and blew the malfunctions).

I guess we can all agree to disagree, but there's more to shooting than just shooting. I will agree though, getting out to a range or course with a good coach that allows you to actually practice these skills with live ammo is massively beneficial. But there's also a lot to refining skills like your draw from the holster, presentation, etc. that one can benefit from dry practice at home without ammo. Just because you're at a range with live ammo doesn't guarantee improvement if you're just doing the same bad habits over and over because all you're doing in engraining and reinforcing bad habits. Also, with the cost of ammo these days getting to the range often enough just isn't possible for many. Although I have quite a bit of ammo, I stopped going to the range. Of course I agree it's much more fun to shoot live ammo but I tend to get more out of, and improve much more concentrating on and fine-tuning other things like presentation, clearing malfunctions for time with a timer, etc, and these are all things I can easily do at home with some dummy rounds and a timer. On the flip side I have friends who just want to go out on BLM land and shoot at stuff, but have zero formal training, don't want formal training, and have no interest in going to a class.

I also think we may be talking about two different things here. Looks like some of us may be comparing the new shooter to the experienced, seasoned shooter. If you're an experienced and seasoned competitive shooter you probably won't be impressed at a 4DDHG class at Front Sight. Sure, you might pick up and learn something you didn't know, or learn a new way to do something that may work better for you and incorporate into your skillset, but overall I can see how this type of shooter wouldn't be impressed. If you're a rank novice, a 4DDHG class is massively beneficial and in my opinion does a fantastic job of teaching and reinforcing the basic fundamentals and drills them over and over during the course of 4 days to where they start becoming automatic for many and promotes safe gun handling. I really feel like this is essential for ANY and EVERY new firearms owner. Gotta learn to crawl before you can walk.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

I remember earlier in this thread a member was upset that his CZ didn't pass weapons inspection, and showed a picture of an NRA trigger weight he had at his home. When I was there last week they actually did have the same NRA trigger weights on the table and that's what they appeared to be using to test triggers during weapons inspection.

Also, I really didn't have any issue with the reduced round count. The first 2 days tend to be a little slow, but this was the case even before the reduced round count. But days 3 and 4 seemed very similar and didn't notice any compromise in the the quality of the class. Also didn't hear any return students complaining about the reduced round count. I shot/used 448 rounds. Had 2 left over after the class.

[beanz2]

I remember earlier in this thread a member was upset that his CZ didn't pass weapons inspection, and showed a picture of an NRA trigger weight he had at his home. When I was there last week they actually did have the same NRA trigger weights on the table and that's what they appeared to be using to test triggers during weapons inspection.

Also, I really didn't have any issue with the reduced round count. The first 2 days tend to be a little slow, but this was the case even before the reduced round count. But days 3 and 4 seemed very similar and didn't notice any compromise in the the quality of the class. Also didn't hear any return students complaining about the reduced round count. I shot/used 448 rounds. Had 2 left over after the class.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

I'm not sure if it wS just being used for rifles or not. I had a stock Glock 17 so they never tested the trigger pull weight with the device. I just remember seeing it on the table and remembered your previous post in this thread. I do wonder what will happen though next time when I bring my Beretta M9A1 with an LTT trigger job in a bag and a 14lb hammer spring. I don't have a gauge, but it feels pretty darn light.

I'll agree, it is lame is they simply wont allow a certain firearm because of an opinion they hold about it without testing it. But if they test it and it fails, guess there's not much you can do.

[SG29736]

A lot can be practiced with dry fire for either training or match shooting. This was true before the recent ammo and component shortages, even more important currently. Matches do have a lot of gun handling, loading, with a lot of movement around a stage compared to a lot of training classes.

As far as malfunctions every shooter should know how to be able to clear them without taking a lot of time. The best I've n at clearing malfunctions are shooters that have to do it constantly. Even if your gun is extremely reliable you need to know how but how much emphasis on it do you need? I prioritize having guns, ammo and mags that run while be ready when it rarely happens.

[beanz2]

I'll agree, it is lame is they simply wont allow a certain firearm because of an opinion they hold about it without testing it. But if they test it and it fails, guess there's not much you can do.

For sure. But if the armorer refuses to test it with their weight, I will have my own

[rodralig]

But like you said, many skills are not practiced and you are spot on about when the firearm jams or fails and how shooters will choke when this happens.

As far as malfunctions every shooter should know how to be able to clear them without taking a lot of time. The best I've n at clearing malfunctions are shooters that have to do it constantly. Even if your gun is extremely reliable you need to know how but how much emphasis on it do you need? I prioritize having guns, ammo and mags that run while be ready when it rarely happens.

First stage on this cold day - my last match for the 2020 season... And why only on this stage?? Malfunction after malfunction! Going into the array in this video, I actually had two other other failures to fire that I already discarded one mag!




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[Vinnie Boombatz]

For sure. But if the armorer refuses to test it with their weight, I will have my own

Ah, so I thought he did test it and said nope. That's much different if he even refused to test the trigger and just told you to kick rocks. That's not cool.

[beanz2]

Ah, so I thought he did test it and said nope. That's much different if he even refused to test the trigger and just told you to kick rocks. That's not cool.