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[AAShooter]

Attended the Precision Rifle Fundamentals yesterday. Definitely different siting in a class all day. I was surprised hoe many others were there. Maybe 40?

I expected everyone would be there after marksmanship and before Precision Rifle, like myself. I was the minority for sure. It seemed most people in the class hadn't taken Rifle Marksmanship yet. At first I thought that is a good idea, then I thought probably not. You learn a lot of detailed information about what effects are occurring to the bullet during flight. Like Coriolis effect and spin drift. Most of the stuff applies beyond 400 yards, which the Marksmanship class does not shoot. It might make you worry about things that aren't an issue at those distances. At least the instructors will know the excuses won't work.

One student asked what a Kestrel was. All good, I'm not knocking it, I was just surprised at the early stages of his learning. Later he asked what type of rifle might be best suited for this class. Instructor Skoog said something like the Mossberg Predator (not the 7.62 version) or the Ruger American rifle. After the class I heard that student say to his class neighbor, so I need to buy a rifle for the Marksmanship class that I can't use for the Precision Rifle class and a Kestrel? At least that is how he saw it. It is a challenge.

I learned quite a bit. I'm glad I was able to take it moths before I am taking PR. I can now look into more depth of some of the topics presented.
Time to get ready for the Practical Rifle SB today and tomorrow.

I have sat through that class multiple times and am never comfortable with the class. I always find it interesting and good information but I am never quite sure who the target audience is.

Many take it immediately before attending the Precision Rifle class. That seem like a bad time to take the class because you have very little time to change anything about your equipment or setup.

On the other hand if you take it far enough ahead that you can make changes, I didn't really find I could take away a lot of actionable items that I could change before the class.

It was great to make you aware of issues and some general education but I think it needs refinement. Of course that class was very different each time I took it so perhaps it is work in progress.

[NorthBay Shooter]

Heading back in late December for a 2-day Skill Builder. Have previously taken the 2-day and 4-day DHG. Used Berettas both times (92FS, M9A1). Recently picked up an XD9 deciding what to take next time. I love way the Beretas feel in my hand, have done the decocker only and hammer spring mods, but am consistently more accurate with the XD9.

Part of me really wants the challenge of earning the G or DG with the Beretta (feel like it would warrant extra bragging points, especially since I got razzed both times by the staff for being the only person in class with a Beretta). Another part of me just wants to take the XD9 since I'm more consistent with it.

Vinnie, which gun is on the nightstand? That is the gun you should train with regardless of how many other guns are in the safe. If you have a CCW, then I would train with that gun, but if I recall you are in the bay area so that may not apply.

[beanz2]

Agree, AAShooter. I think PRF is mainly geared toward the Precision Rifle folks. By having a full day dedicated to the theory aspects, which in Precision there is a lot, FS saved a lot of class time by having everyone take PRF first.

For people who can’t remember classroom theory until they see it in action, taking Precision the next 4 days is very rewarding.

But, yes, the equipment lecture is not useful for those taking Precision the following day, though the knowledge is solid for the next time. Imagine being told you needed a mounted scope level and even the Armory doesn’t have one. I can see why people would take it separately from Precision.

I’m glad FS has this crazy business model they do. If they had a pay-as-you-go model like Gunsite or Sig Academy, I probably would be kicking myself if I had forgotten and left out a small detail like a scope leveler, the wrong bipod feet, or having the wrong kind of ammo.

Threads like this one helps a lot of folks get the right stuff the first time. You probably won’t find one like it for the other schools.

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[XDJYo]

Vinnie, which gun is on the nightstand? That is the gun you should train with regardless of how many other guns are in the safe. If you have a CCW, then I would train with that gun, but if I recall you are in the bay area so that may not apply.

I think part of that journey in training with the XD9 might be a change in the nightstand gun. I know it would be with me.

The proof is in the target. How often and how many can you get in the target? How quickly can you do so?

Anyways, just my 2 cents adjusted for inflation and CA tax rate.

[Vinnie Boombatz]

Vinnie, which gun is on the nightstand? That is the gun you should train with regardless of how many other guns are in the safe. If you have a CCW, then I would train with that gun, but if I recall you are in the bay area so that may not apply.

The M9A1 was the nightstand gun because at the time it was my only firearm with a rail for a light (besides the 590A1 that also has a light on it). Jus picked up the XD9 and have a light for it, but haven't had it to the range yet and made sure it cycles hollow points without a problem. I've just dry firing at home and practicing with a G-Sight ELMS laser round. I'll probably take the XD9 to Front Sight for the skill builder class and put it through it's paces. If I like it and I do well with it I'll probably replace the Beretta with it as the nightstand gun. I hate to admit it, although it's just been dry firing and practicing at home I'm more consistent and accurate with the XD9 so far. Still love mt Berettas (also have a 92FS) and would still keep practicing and dialing in that DA/DA trigger pull.

[TeamAllen]

Not much to report about the rest of my training. The entire place was packed. There was a bunch of families. Kids all over the place. Some kind of program. They ran around yelling Battle Buddies. Looked like fun.

I still can't shoot well enough to DG the class. There was one new thing at the rifle inspection. Instead of pulling the trigger with the meter They have actual 4 lbs. of weight on a metal rod. It has a roller on the trigger end. They just stand your rifle upright on the butt stock and let the weights hang. If it doesn't trip you are good to go. Mine tripped at first. I think when he picked it up he kind of shook the rifle. He was more exact on the next two attempts. I have an adjustable elftmann trigger set at 4.2 oz.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/measuring-tools/trigger-pull-gauges-weights/nra-official-universal-trigger-weight-system-prod9710.aspx

I really didn't care for the Constitutional lecture. I hope that doesn't sound un-American or not patriotic. I don't think it was a usual lecture. There was another guy there and they joined some kind of webcast or something. I left early. I did try the BBQ pulled pork sandwich. Just adequate.

I met Brad Akerman. He was there as well. My son always jokes that he isn't real. He is like an actor or something. So that was proof for him.

[DRM6000]

I finished a four-day rifle marksmanship class on Thursday. A buddy and I both took it for the first time. He wanted to take it and I did it just because I've never done it and having an excuse to get away and go to FS is never a bad thing.

This course is an entry-level rifle class like the practical rifle course, but with a different purpose - to learn to hit small targets. This course is great for the person who might hunt and for those who want to gain marksmanship skills. It is also the gatekeeper to the precision rifle course. I think that the test is more challenging than the the one in practical rifle.

Our instructors were:

Josh Skoog (RM)
Ben Reynolds
Kevin Colton(?)
Frank...err...something (he's one of the three Precision Rifle instructors if you know him)

We had a mix of students from those who never shot a rifle to experienced shooters. On day one we had 40 or so students including a few that were two-dayers. By day four, we were down to 22 or so.

For those who have taken the entry-level courses will find the first two days boring as usual. They go over safety, the anatomy and operation of a rifle, the basic principles of marksmanship and shooting platforms. The majority of the learning and drills were conducted on those two days. Those days were the busiest.

Day three is when things picked up a bit, but the pace slowed down. Most of the day was spent gathering data. We shot to measure bullet drop at various distances from 35 yds to 350 yds. I think the target sizes from 35-100 yds were 3, 4, and 5 inch circles and the targets from 150-350 6, 8, and 9 inch circles. We were given lessons on holdovers and using our reticles and reading the wind. We were not allowed to dial for windage and elevations in this course.

At 35 and 50 yds, shots were offhand only. Sling support allowed.
At 75 and 100, unsupported shooting platforms were allowed. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone, and whatever was allowed as long at no artificial rests (e.g. bipods, bags) were used and no part of the rifle touched the ground. Sling support allowed.
From 150-350 any platform or support was allowed.

On day four, we confirmed zero and practiced shooting from 35 through 350 using holdovers. After lunch, I think we got another shot at 350. The test was run after that. We ran two relays and that seemed to consume most of the afternoon. There was an exercise after that, then the class close-out stuff.

Skoog described the course as somewhere between the practical rifle and precision rifle courses. On one end the spectrum, the ARs work great at the closer shooting distances and not so good at the longer distances (remember, we're shooting at smaller targets.) The heavier precision rifles would have a challenging time with offhand shooting at the close distances, but would excel at the further distances. An example of an ideal rifle for the course would be a Ruger American in .308Win or 6.5 Creedmoor.

I thought the AR shooter was not at a particular disadvantage, but shooter skill and sight/optic choices were the limiting factors in our class. Some students were novices with rifles and/or had optics that are more suited for shooting CQB or at larger targets. They would have had a much better time in practical rifle. Some guys with ARs equipped with magnified optics did much better with at least one guy who did better than most.

The guy with the bolt-action rifles shot much better in terms of accuracy. Some of them appeared to have challenges with the offhand and unsupported positions. My buddy and I ran bolt guns. With a 17lb. rifle, I ran the heaviest one in the class. I received a bunch of comments about it. I had my doubts initially and found it challenging, but the rifle felt lighter to me as I got used to it and made adjustments in running it (instructor Frank gave me a super useful tip that saved me). It became normal for me.

IMO, whatever rifle you use, make sure you have quality, accurate ammo. There were students with rifles that were more than adequate for the course, but were using ammo that didn't maximize their rifles' capabilities. But, if you can shoot good with standard ammo, then you're probably better than most.

From my observations at the end, we ended up with:

5 DG
2 G
A bunch of CA

(Out of 18 points)
DG is -0 to -4 points
G is -5 to -7 points
CA is -8 and lower

Rifles of the class top achievers (bolt guns represented well):

Of the DGs:

Rem 700 LTR in .223Rem
Rem 700 PSS in .308Win
Custom 17lb Rem 700 in .308Win
Savage BA Stealth in 6.5CM
Unknown

The Gs:

Rem 700 PSS in .308Win
AR (caliber unknown)

My buddy and I both got DGs. He's new to this type of shooting and shot a new rifle he put together a few days before the class. Apparently he is a quick-study and a talented shooter. He didn't beat me. He probably will next time though.

Interestingly, we were at the far end of the line with three other four-day students by luck and we racked up most of the silver stickers.

Overall, I think it was a useful class for students who want to run a rifle for other than defensive or tactical purposes and to increase their marksmanship skills. I don't particularly care to repeat this class since I didn't find it challenging enough. If I take it again, I'd do it with a rifle that would make it challenging.

[beanz2]

[DRM6000]

That's it! Shinault. Thanks for filling in the blank.

I didn't shoot very well standing at all. I think it was luck I got hits on the test.

[cjbruin]

Did Advanced Tactical Handgun on Wed-Thu. Great team, headed by TJ Wilson alongside Larry Barajas, High-Energy TJ Rotherham, Frank Molthen & Aaron Taylor. Overall, I really enjoyed it and look forward to them refining the class so there isn't as much waiting around for classmates to finish scenarios. Part of the problem is the lack of staff due to losses from Covid (fortunately not infections, just instructors not wanting to return or took other jobs).

The guys did a great job of placing you under stress during exercises...though it made me laugh as much as anything. One thing I definitely learned is never ever try to save a baby

[beanz2]

Did Advanced Tactical Handgun on Wed-Thu. Great team, headed by TJ Wilson alongside Larry Barajas, High-Energy TJ Rotherham, Frank Molthen & Aaron Taylor. Overall, I really enjoyed it and look forward to them refining the class so there isn't as much waiting around for classmates to finish scenarios. Part of the problem is the lack of staff due to losses from Covid (fortunately not infections, just instructors not wanting to return or took other jobs).

The guys did a great job of placing you under stress during exercises...though it made me laugh as much as anything. One thing I definitely learned is never ever try to save a baby

That TJ Wilson is one talented young man!

Yes, once you get the baby, the correct step would be to get the hell out Dodge . But going hunting for the bad guys after you put the baby just outside the front door sure is fun

Who says the baby's twin sister was not left in the house?

.

[TeamAllen]

Great write up and congratulations on the DG.
What was the super helpful tip, Frank gave you, that saved you?

[cjbruin]

That TJ Wilson is one talented young man!

Yes, once you get the baby, the correct step would be to get the hell out Dodge . But going hunting for the bad guys after you put the baby just outside the front door sure is fun

Who says the baby's twin sister was not left in the house?

.

Ha! Fortunately, I wasn't that stupid. Don't want to give the scenarios away but suffice it to say that my snafus were completely avoidable.

[DRM6000]

Great write up and congratulations on the DG.
What was the super helpful tip, Frank gave you, that saved you?

To let the air out of my lungs while shooting offhand. It made the crosshairs move a whole lot less. There seemed to be momentary pauses in movement when I could get a press in. Before that, I think all my hits were everywhere but in the circle. I didn't think I had a chance.

[Paseclipse]

Good write-up for Rifle Marksmanship DRM!

What worked for me in that course was the use of a sling, good quality ammo, and using a bag and bipod combo for 150+ yards. Scoped out AR's are more than capable for that course IF the wind is calm.