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[nszzya]

That's true for the classifiers, but not for the matches. That's one of the major disconnects for both styles; the classifiers don't have a particularly strong correlation to the real-world stages.

Agreed. Getting back to what you said though:

There isn't really any direct correlation to the competition shooting you mentioned as they are completely different skill-sets. HCM is mostly a test of extremely precise presentation from the holster with fast splits on pairs or multi-target.

This is pretty much what USPSA classifier stages are.

I would contend that any USPSA GM could pass the HCM test with minimal preparation.

[rodralig]

Congratz! Jealous of you! Do they still have the lunch wagon on site? I can't remember what it was called. But the lunches were good, always filled us up and we wound up having leftover apples etc.

Thank you! Thank you! I am really looking forward to it! Jedi54 has been selling me on those classes for a few posts now... Hahaha!

When I was there last December, the lunch wagon was still there... Beach Cafe wagon? But according to the recent posts in this thread, not anymore...

I haven't been back in over 5 years.

No plans to go back? Now that I got myself a President membership, I may go back at least once a year to learn more about other platforms.

There isn't really any direct correlation to the competition shooting you mentioned as they are completely different skill-sets. HCM is mostly a test of extremely precise presentation from the holster with fast splits on pairs or multi-target. Whereas with IDPA/USPSA presentation has almost no bearing on the results even for 'master class' shooters. For those styles stage planning/execution is as important as running the gun.

The way I understand action shooting from Ben Stoeger/JJ Racaza/Steve Anderson - you proceed to being more efficient in stage planning/execution; but the presumption is that the fundamentals are already solid, ie., draw to 7-yards A-zone to an acceptable sight picture in 0.7-sec, slide-lock reload to 7-yards A-zone in 1.0-sec, etc.. This is what Ben Stoeger calls "Elements."

Ultimately, I think one who is really good at one is fully capable of being really good at the other; but the transition will not be automatic it will take time and training to make the switch.

Yes, it may NOT be automatic. But then again, the ramp up shouldn't be much.

The presentation can have a meaningful impact on those scores. The M and GM USPSA shooters I know all practice their presentations and are looking for sub-second times.

Correct!

HCM is mostly a test of extremely precise presentation from the holster with fast splits on pairs or multi-target.

The El Presidente classifier in USPSA - to make it to just B-class in Production, one has to complete it in at least 8.58-sec and get all As.

USPSA A-zone compared to the FS TC: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...postcount=9999

This is pretty much what USPSA classifier stages are.

I would contend that any USPSA GM could pass the HCM test with minimal preparation.

... and was the basis for my hypothesis that someone who is a mid-ranked competitive shooter should be able to pass the HCM with minimal preparation. The HCM test, as well the 4DDHG Skills Test (which I took last December), are a test of fundamentals - draw to target, transitions (visual and physical), malfunction handling, trigger control, etc.

But obviously, the mental preparation is crucial, and as you have put it - the ebb and flow shooting skill.

Hhhmmm... I am aware of some members that post in this thread that have a competition background, am wondering if they could also chime in if they had taken the HCM.


_

[Citizen_B]

Just got back from the 4 day defensive handgun class and I am pretty sure it will be my last. I have not been to FS in about 6 years because I have opted to go to other training, but decided to go this year because it is free and I could stay in Las Vegas. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the training at Front Sight. It is just extremely boring. I was amazed at how easy the shooting is (which I suppose is a good thing).

With about an hour left in day 3, I couldn't bring myself to go back to the line for another round of standing still and shooting a single target so I went to the RM and told him I was leaving and would not be back for day 4. He was concerned that I was upset about something but understood when I explained the situation. He still tried to get me to stay by saying I would easily DG and be eligible for the advanced class, but I am not interested in that. I will go to one of the Gunsite advanced classes and just pay the money.

I will still recommend Front Sight to anyone who is new to shooting, and still consider the decision to purchase a Diamond membership from a Calgunner one of the best I have ever made. I have just happily grown past what they offer.

Fair criticism. I look at FS for more fundamentals training than tactics. 4DDHG is very basics/safety oriented. It can be aggravating if an experienced shooter misses DG on first time test (like me), knowing that a return is needed just to pass a test to take the next classes. Tact HG in my mind is equivalent to "intermediate" level stuff outside, moving and shooting, alternative positions, etc. Adv Tact HG adds some alternative positions but focuses more on situational stuff. I'd put the level as intermediate/advanced outside. While I like the class as they give you more flexibility on how to shoot and approach the situation, the instruction part is largely dependent on the assigned instructors. I have some quibble with their staged scenarios but for the most part I think it was fine.

For advanced/tactics stuff, I do think there are better options than FS. There are a number of excellent "been there" trainers to provide real-world experience instruction, particularly from the SOF/SWAT community. I tend to be a bit critical of training, but with some of them I could find no fault - all of it just made sense to me. I think the USPSA GM instructors are great for mastering fundamentals. Some of them train the real-world guys to get that part of their skillset up. Force-on-force and scenarios with simunitions are fantastic.

In the end, I look at FS still as a good value for training, as shooting fundamentals fades faster than tactical knowledge. My plan is to keep hitting FS for fundamentals and some scenario diversity, and occasional tactical refreshers and perspectives from outside instructors (not too often, as they're $$$ and hard for me to fit in limited schedule). If I was made of money I'd probably keep hitting USPSA GMs for upkeep/progression of fundamentals and real-worlders for tactical growth. I haven't been to GS yet and am curious.

[mej16489]

Agreed. Getting back to what you said though:



This is pretty much what USPSA classifier stages are.

I would contend that any USPSA GM could pass the HCM test with minimal preparation.

I understand that at face-value my two statements sound like a contradiction. I don't think they are when taken in the context of the primary focus of either discipline.

[LV_G22]

I would contend that any USPSA GM could pass the HCM test with minimal preparation.

And, that's the beauty of the HCM test.

All the opinions, hypotheses, and "talk" don't count...

The only thing that counts is taking a certified test, and passing!

There have been 30 people who have done it at Frontsight.

[mej16489]

I understand that at face-value my two statements sound like a contradiction. I don't think they are when taken in the context of the primary focus of either discipline.

I forgot to mention that I've shot the test (in practice) with 2 different GMs. They most certainly shoot it substantially better then 99% of the people you will see shoot in the 4 day HCMP class. 1 of those GMs still shoots the test weekly over the last year or so and I don't believe he's yet passed even in practice.

..but don't misconstrue what I'm saying. Anyone who shoots at that level is 100% fully capable of passing the test, my point is that it isn't trivial...even for them.

[tanks]

That's true for the classifiers, but not for the matches. That's one of the major disconnects for both styles; the classifiers don't have a particularly strong correlation to the real-world stages.

Yet, strangely in major matches (level II and above) most scores follow one's classification.

[mej16489]

Yet, strangely in major matches (level II and above) most scores follow one's classification.

True, but is that because the classifier measures one's ability on a stage, or because both the classifier 'stages' and actual match scores both require an extreme level of focus and dedication to the task.

[AAShooter]

. . .I would contend that any USPSA GM could pass the HCM test with minimal preparation.

I believe Naish has made a bet on that a few times. I understand a USPSA GM can take the class at FS at no charge if they would like (no membership required) with one caveat. If they qualify as HCM, they are good to go. Otherwise, they pay for the class. Don't think he has given away too many classes.

[AAShooter]

And, that's the beauty of the HCM test.

All the opinions, hypotheses, and "talk" don't count...

The only thing that counts is taking a certified test, and passing!

There have been 30 people who have done it at Frontsight.

^^^^^ This! It is kind of like the skills tests in the basic classes. I hear from shooters all the time the beginning classes are too basic for them and that they are more advanced shooters but they don't score well on the skills test.

The problem with shooting is that it is a relatively simple skill to master intellectually. However, actually doing it in the real world is a different story. If you can't DG the basic class, how are your shooting skills too advanced?

[Mustard]

If you can't DG the basic class, how are your shooting skills too advanced?

SHOTS FIRED

I'll be going to Tactical HG and Adv. Tactical HG May 29 through June 1. Who's with me???

[Jedi54]

Looks like there should be a few of us there that weekend

[hermosabeach]

I had fun years ago shooting sims in the tunnels. What are the classes called now that use sims and tunnels?

I also miss all the lunch lectures on escalation of force and how to drop the gun when the police arrive.

[NorthBay Shooter]

I believe Naish has made a bet on that a few times. I understand a USPSA GM can take the class at FS at no charge if they would like (no membership required) with one caveat. If they qualify as HCM, they are good to go. Otherwise, they pay for the class. Don't think he has given away too many classes.

Disclaimer, I have not passed HCM or a USPSA GM.

It's funny. I have thought about this specific aspect of FS for a very long time, almost too much.. I believe a national champion level USPSA production GM could pass the shooting part of the HCM without too much trouble, but would not pass the malfunctions. I have taken classes and shot with world class shooters including Ben Stoeger ($495 for two days). As a production shooter, he needs to shoot alpha's to win (along with being fast). This is the same concept on the HCM shooting down zero's. The hard part would be getting him to spend time training on the FS target (rather than a USPSA target) and getting him to spend time at FS to take the test for free. Additionally, I am not sure his production gun, tanfolio, would qualify for the test.

I would sure like to see someone like him try to pass the HCM. I don't think the pressure of taking the test would get to him like it does most folks. I would think that trying to win a national championship or a world championship takes mental focus.

[hermosabeach]

To follow up on the bored at FS comment...

When you take new shooters to FS, it get old... same old 4 day pistol...


SO
try a revolver for the class
Shoot with the opposite hand and eye- if you are a right handed, buy a $25 fobus holster and take the class left handed... left eye and left hand for 4 days...