RO QUESTION

[mecam]

Hey folks,

I have a quick question.

Lets say we are at a rifle match, the shooter had just finished his course of fire, and everyone is downrange scoring and patching-up the targets.

Now, while everyone is downrange, the next shooter (unbeknownst to anyone) got anxious and went to the stating point. While there, he started getting ready and LOADED A MAGAZINE INTO HIS BLACK RIFLE.

Of course, as soon as an RO saw that, he ran to the shooter and grabbed his weapon to ensure HE (the RO) had everything in control. The shooter got mad, and told the RO to never touch his weapon again. He told the RO that he should just "tell him" to unload and make safe...but not to touch his weapon.

Is the fact that he was locked and loaded, with other shooters down range, and without an RO giving him these commands, a DQable offence?

How would yall have handled it?

Just curious.

In Christ: Raymond

BAN until shooter takes some RO command classes. You are not to go ahead and load any mags without the RO saying so that "you may now load"...


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[MustangGreg66]

Touch the weapon? MY ***! I have ripped the weapon out of their hands to protect my staff. Taken the bolt/carrier out, and told them they could pick it up at a know local gun store.

I like that one. Maybe a little excessive, but he sure as hell wouldn't do that again.

I'll preface my further comments saying that I've shot action pistol for a few years but have no three gun experience. The first thing I thought of when i read this thread and the RO grabbing the guys gun was, "hope he didn't have an AD" so I'd second Wulf's comment

If the muzzle was in a direction that I was sure was a 100% safe direction (basically sky, nearby berm/wall, or ground within a few feet of the shooters feet), I would take control of the muzzle and maintain control till the range was cleared. A sudden grab could cause a person to have a sympathetic grip contraction and could precipitate a discharge, So if the muzzle was actually pointed at someone or where someone could easily have been, I'd issue a stop or a freeze, then step in where I could communicate further and control the muzzle in some cooperative fashion.

I shot the Shotgun only Match at Richmond this year, which was interesting in that every stage had a "Staging Area" Where one could load their shotgun before they were up to shoot. Gun in the staging area were pointed into a burm or hard cover on the side of the shooting area, but you were essentially loading while people were downrange. I made sure not to chamber any rounds until I was up to the shooting line and given the command to make ready by the RO, but it was definitly a diffrent experience.

I'd treat a rifle as you'd treat a holstered pistol, don't mess with it til you're given the command to make ready. What do most 3-gun matches do with long guns in between stages? Set in a cart? Bagged?...

[mecam]

I shot the Shotgun only Match at Richmond this year, which was interesting in that every stage had a "Staging Area" Where one could load their shotgun before they were up to shoot. Gun in the staging area were pointed into a burm or hard cover on the side of the shooting area, but you were essentially loading while people were downrange. I made sure not to chamber any rounds until I was up to the shooting line and given the command to make ready by the RO, but it was definitly a diffrent experience.

It's safe to load the magazine tube but you pinch (stove pipe) a round between the bolt and receiver to show that the chamber is empty, like having a chamber flag. Then when you get up to shoot and RO gives the green light to load, you then just chamber the round that was pinched between the bolt and receiver. I have no problem with this and definitely speeds up the match.

[vandal]

I can't believe I missed this drama.

[paul0660]

DQ and BUA.........boot up ***.

[mecam]

One of the other RO's (there were 3 of us), actually saw it, and grabbed the weapon. The shooter had the weapon slung, so it was not physically taken from him - but the RO did grab it to prevent any further movement from the shooter.

Whoa, wait a minute!!, I was the main RO in our squad and why do I not know about this Raymond???? You were suppose to notify me ASAP. Where the hell was I during this incident?


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[vandal]

I'm sure Slamfire handled it with poise and penache. I just wish we had video. LOL

[mecam]

Actually I was pretty pissed but I tried to keep it fair.

Which stage was this?

[mecam]

three

Hmm, was I down range scoring?

[Clodbuster]

If this was a Chabot 3 gun match, hopefully you checked that the idiot didn't also load his pistol along with his rifle.

[mecam]

His pistol nor his rifle were loaded.

Ok, so he almost pointed down range while people were still down there. I'll talk to Steve and we need to emphasize the safety rules in the morning meeting. I saw plenty of new faces there and we have no clue if they have at least attended any of the Tactical matches which is required for newbees before shooting the multi-gun.


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[RaymondMillbrae]

Yea...Slamfire was pretty ticked-off! But he was on it like white on rice.

As for where you were, Rick. Umm...downrange...in his crosshairs. (Just joking).

This is something that I have been thinking about.

Is there a way to ensure that the folks shooting a match, or practicing at the action range, have attended the intro/safety class before shooting?

Even at my regular practice range, I have seen folks walk-up and holster their weapons at the range table (with shooters in front of the muzzle), instead of at the safety area. Yea...the guy was asked to leave the practice range immediately by the RO - but the point is how do we really know if they have received the safety training?

Some guys have been shooting for many years before getting into the competition aspect. But that doesn't mean they know the range safety rules.

This is something I personally keep my eyes open for.

I think a new rifle match SOP would be beneficial. Maybe like placing a number on the weapon, and having the RO pick it up from the rack and pass it to the shooter when it is his turn to shoot. And like Todd C did in one of our matches - in which he took the rifle from the shooters hands after the stage has been shot, and placed it back in the rack/safeety area himself. (I actually liked that very much. Enough that I still remember thinking to myself, "Now THAT'S the way to do it")!

Or how about making it MANDITORY to have a brightly colored (neon?) safety flag in your weapon when you are not firing? No safety flag, no fire.

Just food for thought.

In Christ: Raymond

PS: Maybe I initially gave yall incorrect information. I thought the weapon was locked and loaded. (Not that it matters, as the magazine should never have been in his hand in the first place). But I thought the round was in the chamber. My bad!!! (And quick reactions, Slamfire).

[kmca]

Raymond, too bad you missed the USPSA RO class last month at Richmond. It was very well attended. Now that I'm certified (once I get my packet in the mail) I can help out more

[uscbigdawg]

First off, it sounds like slamfire is the ONLY one that knows what ACTUALLY happened. And, it sounds like that your "locked and loaded" situation was a competitor standing there with a mag in his hand. Hardly locked and loaded rifle with people down range. Now, if he inserted that mag, go home.

That said, Raymond, before you interject any opinion, you might try getting the story straight. Numbering rifles, RO's handling firearms, etc. are completely useless solutions to problems that don't exist.

Having shot 3-Gun for more than a decade (including RO'ing multiple Area and National Championships), there's rarely a need for a RO to ever touch a competitors firearm, even when clearing it or preparing a competitor for a course. If someone is too stupid to know safe gun handling, all the above "solutions" don't fix an unsafe shooter. 3-Gun/Multigun is NOT for beginners and firearms safety is a zero tolerance issue (i.e. see your own reference to an incident at your "practice" range when the guy was booted for holstering in the wrong place).

Start with a RO class and be a competitor for a little longer before suggesting rewriting of a SOP. Better still, let's start with what ACTUALLY happened. Chabot's been doing these matches (or variations thereof) for more than a minute as has Richmond, Sacramento and USPSA & IDPA and while no one claims to have everything covered, odds are 99-ish% of them have been with experienced competitors and experienced staff.

Bottom line is this. If in the starting position, with people down range, the competitor can manipulate their gear as they see fit. They cannot handle, manipulate, load (to include inserting a magazine with an empty chamber), take a sight picture, etc. without being under the direction of a RO/SO. If there are folks downrange, this goes out the window.

The sudo-exception to this pre-loading a shotgun which is, as stated above, loading the magazine tube of the shotgun and not the chamber. This too is done under the supervision of a RO or another competitor acting as a RO and done in a designated area.

In the end, it sounds like it was properly addressed, but again, everything until slamfire came in we've now learned didn't happen.

Rich

[galekowitz]

So he was pointing a rifle downrange while holding a magazine? Or was he just standing there holding both?