Bullets keep falling into cases..

[Fishslayer]

Really? Even in the Lee die instructions it says to screw in until die touches shell plate/holder, lower ram, then screw in an additional 1/4 turn.

Might wanna look again. My Lee 9mm instructions say to get them just touching & lock it finger tight. I actually set mine to one RCH short of touching & haven't had any problems.

EDIT: They're the carbide 4 die set

[1HitaQuita]

Might wanna look again. My Lee 9mm instructions say to get them just touching & lock it finger tight. I actually set mine to one RCH short of touching & haven't had any problems.

EDIT: They're the carbide 4 die set

You're correct. For pistol it says to touch then lock. For rifle it says an additional 1/4 turn. Not sure why it would be any different. I've been using the additional 1/4 turn on my pistol dies, so far no problems. No feed or firing problems either.

[bigedp51]

You are using a carbide die that has a single diameter and a 9mm case with a tapered diameter. If you set the die too low you will OVER resize the case and make it wasp waisted or Coke Bottle shaped.



Now WHY would you want to size the case smaller than "NORMAL" base diameter?

Below from the Sierra reloading manual.

Carbide Sizers

Carbide sizing dies have become tremendously popular in the past ten to fifteen years, and for good reason. As we have already seen, carbide dies do away with the necessity of lubricating cases prior to the resizing process. They do require some attention to how they are set up, to avoid damage to the die, and obtain best results. The often repeated advice to screw the die body down until it contacts the shell holder, will give poor results with a carbide die and may even result in cracking the carbide insert. NEVER adjust the die body down so far that it will contact the shell holder. Carbide dies for straight-wall cases are not designed to full-length resize, and are frequently adjusted to give what amounts to excessive resizing. This often results in an undesirable bulge slightly above the extractor groove. Often called the “Coke bottle” effect, this will cause the brass to be worked excessively and can lead to reduced case life. The only portion of the case that needs to be resized is the area that is expanded by firing. For use in revolvers especially, the case need only be sized enough to allow the case to chamber freely again. Often, this may involve sizing only half the length of the case body and is in effect, neck sizing. If this is enough to allow the case to be chambered easily, then the die is adjusted down far enough.

This will avoid overworking the brass, and will eliminate the so-called Coke-bottle effect.

Newer more costly dies have two carbide sizing rings to prevent the Coke bottle effect.



1. Measure the diameter of your expander, it may be oversized, ball park it should be at least .001 smaller the your bullet diameter.
2. Mixed brass will have different case wall thickness and can cause different neck tension. (bullet grip in the case)
3. Range pickup brass fired in larger chambers will have a different springback rate. As Kurgan stated above you may need a smaller diameter carbide sizer to compensate for the springback of the brass. To fix this I use a standard non-carbide die and at the top of the ram stroke I pause and count to three. This tells the brass who's the boss and to stay put.

You need to find out if its the sizing operation or the expanding operation thats not doing its job.
And you need to apply a taper crimp to your cases, the crimp should be no more than .001 to .002 smaller than normal case diameter.

[J-cat]

Take the offending cases and size them. Then measure the outside diameter at the case mouth. Report back.

[ironhorse1]

Lee

"You are using a carbide die that has a single diameter and a 9mm case with a tapered diameter. If you set the die too low you will OVER resize the case and make it wasp waisted or Coke Bottle shaped."

Nope!


The Lee die set has a full length tapered carbide insert.

Because the OP was not fully inserting the case into the die the top of the case was not completely resized.

As far as cracking an insert, I've never had a problem with either the Lee or RCBS die sets.

9MM cases will develop a slight ring at the head after being reloaded a few times.

Since the primer pockets will also get loose when I see the ring the case is loaded and disposed of after firing.

I use an RCBS JR press and always touch the shellholder plus a little more.

Cases must be completely resized or the case neck tension needed to hold the bullet in the case will not be present.

irh

[J-cat]

But only 5-10% of his cases fails to hold bullets. If what you say is true, all of his cases would fail.

[bigedp51]

I hate to admit it but ironhorse1 is 100% correct, I just pulled my Lee four die 9mm set out and looked at the carbide insert and it seizes the entire length of the case.

I also read the instructions "again" and realized they were not for a standard non-carbide die. I have too many carbide dies and have chronologically gifted eyesight, I broke out the flashlight and my magnifying glass and realized I couldn't come back to the forum and say ironhorse1 had brown eyes and was full of it.

My mistake so, when in doubt read the instructions.

And good work ironhorse1, I have had these dies for over five years and always set them up to not touch the shell holder.
(I wont say anything about reloading for over 46 years and thinking the die instructions were wrong)

[ironhorse1]

Not really!

Cases are not all the exact same in thickness and we are talking about only a very small difference. Think .001-.002" difference.

I have loaded many different brands of cases. Never have a 9MM fail to hold a bullet firmly.

Recently found some Tolammo cases mixed in and boy those have really thick brass.

Do it the right way or do it over. It's part of the learning process.

irh

[ironhorse1]

I hate to admit it but ironhorse1 is 100% correct, I just pulled my Lee four die 9mm set out and looked at the carbide insert and it seizes the entire length of the case.

I also read the instructions "again" and realized they were not for a standard non-carbide die. I have too many carbide dies and have chronologically gifted eyesight, I broke out the flashlight and my magnifying glass and realized I couldn't come back to the forum and say ironhorse1 had brown eyes and was full of it.

My mistake so, when in doubt read the instructions.

And good work ironhorse1, I have had these dies for over five years and always set them up to not touch the shell holder.
(I wont say anything about reloading for over 46 years and thinking the die instructions were wrong)

Thank you. I sometimes hesitate to post because someone will say that I'm just full of it.

We need to encourage everyone to read the instructions first and post after if they have a problem.

I think everyone needs a mentor to get them started.

Just trying to be helpful with what I know that works.

irh

[bigedp51]

But only 5-10% of his cases fails to hold bullets. If what you say is true, all of his cases would fail.

Not correct, just the thinner cases that were not sized small enough are failing to hold the bullet. The OP was adjusting the die like a RCBS carbide die and made the same mistake I made about the Lee carbide die setup, meaning not touching the shell holder.

I just screwed my Lee die into the press and it was adjusted to touch the shell holder. This tells me I made the same mistake but adjusted the die down until it contacted the shell holder. It also dawned on me I was have problems with some 115 FMJ bullets that fit too loose and I adjusted the die to fix my mistake.

[bigedp51]

Thank you. I sometimes hesitate to post because someone will say that I'm just full of it.

We need to encourage everyone to read the instructions first and post after if they have a problem.

I think everyone needs a mentor to get them started.

Just trying to be helpful with what I know that works.

irh

ironhorse1, you hit the nail on the head and were 100% correct.

(I hope you go to Tijuana and come back with a incurable social disease)

I really hate being wrong, having brown eyes and egg on my face.

[J-cat]

Not correct, just the thinner cases that were not sized small enough are failing to hold the bullet. The OP was adjusting the die like a RCBS carbide die and made the same mistake I made about the Lee carbide die setup, meaning not touching the shell holder.

I just screwed my Lee die into the press and it was adjusted to touch the shell holder. This tells me I made the same mistake but adjusted the die down until it contacted the shell holder. It also dawned on me I was have problems with some 115 FMJ bullets that fit too loose and I adjusted the die to fix my mistake.

What's different between the RCBS and the Lee carbide?

[bigedp51]

What's different between the RCBS and the Lee carbide?

The older style carbide type dies like the RCBS die has a shorter carbide ring with a single diameter.

The newer type carbide dies like the Lee have a full length carbide insert the same length as the case. The carbide insert is tapered like a normal sizing die and will size a tapered case correctly.

This posting made me pull all my carbide dies out and really look at them meaning getting a good look at the carbide inserts.

Below is a Redding carbide die, it has the shorter "single diameter" carbide ring that can cause the Coke bottle shape to a sized case when adjusted too low on a tapered case.



Below is a Hornady Titanium nitride 9mm die (harder than carbide) the insert is the length of the case and tapered like the case. The Lee carbide die is exactly the same length, this turns these type dies into a "standard" full length die that sizes the case to the proper diameter its entire length. Meaning no more Coke bottle shaped cases.





You can thank ironhorse1 for having a good set of eyes and "seeing" the difference in die types. I have been reloading for over 46 years and never thought to "look" at the newer type dies and "how" they worked.

The old dog learned a new trick, thank you ironhorse1, I owe you a cold beer.

P.S. J-cat, you owe me a six pack of Yuengling for taking my dies apart and taking all these photos.

[J-cat]

My Redding titanium carbide die sizes the case so the bottom 2/3 is tapered and the top third is straight. That way I have correct tension regardless of the die and the shell holder relationship. I can cam over, leave some light, or not and it doesn't matter. If Lee requires cam over then the OP should cam over, but that's a design flaw.

[DS94901]

Not correct, just the thinner cases that were not sized small enough are failing to hold the bullet. The OP was adjusting the die like a RCBS carbide die and made the same mistake I made about the Lee carbide die setup, meaning not touching the shell holder.

I just screwed my Lee die into the press and it was adjusted to touch the shell holder. This tells me I made the same mistake but adjusted the die down until it contacted the shell holder. It also dawned on me I was have problems with some 115 FMJ bullets that fit too loose and I adjusted the die to fix my mistake.

Whats odd is that most of any particular head stamped brass (pmc for instance) would hold the bullet just fine then one would randomly be extremely loose. I suppose it's most likely the die adjustment issue, at least I hope it is. It just seems odd that such an extremely small (1/4 turn) adjustment will make that much of a difference but lets hope it does.

Thank you. I sometimes hesitate to post because someone will say that I'm just full of it.

We need to encourage everyone to read the instructions first and post after if they have a problem.

I think everyone needs a mentor to get them started.

Just trying to be helpful with what I know that works.

irh

I guess I read an outdated set of instructions. I know how aggravated everybody gets by posters asking questions they can find the answer to elsewhere with some research so I always try to find the answer elsewhere, however, it is nice when you're able to ask people that might have had similar experiences rather than go through more trial and error first. I wish I was lucky enough to have a mentor. I tried to find one here on calguns before but nobody seemed interested.

I'm going to set up my die again tonight to touch the shell holder and give it a go, assuming I can get my 4 month old daughter to sleep before I have to hit the hay myself. Thanks again for the help everybody.