Bullets keep falling into cases..

[bigedp51]

My Redding titanium carbide die sizes the case so the bottom 2/3 is tapered and the top third is straight. That way I have correct tension regardless of the die and the shell holder relationship. I can cam over, leave some light, or not and it doesn't matter. If Lee requires cam over then the OP should cam over, but that's a design flaw.

I never read any instructions for carbide dies telling you to have the press cam over. BUT the newer type dies do tell you to adjust the die until it contacts the shell holder. And I do not consider this a "design flaw" on the newer type dies with the full length carbide insert.

This doesn't mean the OP has a bad set of dies and we need to hear back from him on his outcome after he sets up his die as per the instructions.

[J-cat]

It is a design flaw when a quarter turn of the die results in insufficient neck tension on a round where .2-.3" of the case is supposed to be sized to hold the bullet.

[bigedp51]

It is a design flaw when a quarter turn of the die results in insufficient neck tension on a round where .2-.3" of the case is supposed to be sized to hold the bullet.

Why don't you wait for the person holding and adjusting the die to confirm the problem before making physic guesses with something you do not have in your hands and can evaluate.

The OP has the same Lee die I have and my die doesn't have a design flaw and works as advised. The OP "may" have a defective die which can include two different parts, "BUT" lets wait and hear from him before jumping to conclusions.

[orangeusa]

Uhh, there's been a lot of leaping to conclusion here.

Has OP done other calibers and had no problems with them? Reloading is a PROCESS, and as such, many things can be done improperly.

Resizing and crimping are not difficult. And I think J-Cat was just saying that the info given was leading to blaming the dies, which is a weak argument.

I've got 4(?) sets of Lee dies for straight wall brass, and have never had a problem with them. They are easy to set. I do admit that the directions are pretty bad. Resizing is meant to be done (on Lee carbides) the length of the brass - i.e. ram hits the base of the die.

Crimping takes a little time, but with the sizing dies I have, the bullet is like a 2 mils larger than the sized shell (on 44/45 larger than the brass and almost no crimp is needed. Nevertheless, I do a taper crimp just so they match factory ammo. Same for 44mag - which is almost a full roll crimp...

I seriously doubt we have a faulty die here.

.

[pdq_wizzard]

Why don't you wait for the person holding and adjusting the die to confirm the problem before making physic guesses with something you do not have in your hands and can evaluate.

The OP has the same Lee die I have and my die doesn't have a design flaw and works as advised. The OP "may" have a defective die which can include two different parts, "BUT" lets wait and hear from him before jumping to conclusions.

Sorry I love this movie

[M1NM]

Setting the decapping/resizing die by screwing in until it just touches the shell holder then backing off by 1/4-1/2 turn.

There's your problem. When it touches go another 1/8 - 1/4 turn down. You want the handle to just cam over center.

[Khromo]

I just picked up a lot a tricks from the Tubbs and Sierra advanced reloading DVD's. One idea they offered for the guy trying to figure out a neck tension problem was to remove the expander/decapping assembly from your resizing die, resizing a few cases, and checking the neck fit. It should be very tight, usually too tight to start seating the bullet. This tells you if the sizing die body is getting the neck tight enough.

Then, after polishing the expander, reassemble the die and run a few pieces of brass through it as you normally would. If the bullets are a loose fit in this brass, you know the expander is out of spec (too large). Now you know you need to grind or polish your expander down to spec, or get a new expander stem. It saves you buying a new die or returning the old one.

They point out a lot of issues with the expander that I'd never seen anywhere else. Both sources made a big deal out of polishing the expander as smooth as possible. A rough expander can pull on the case neck hard enough when the case is lowered out of the die to stretch the neck and pull the shoulder out of spec.

The DVD's explain it a lot better than I could! Hope this helps.

[Dark Mod]

Whats odd is that most of any particular head stamped brass (pmc for instance) would hold the bullet just fine then one would randomly be extremely loose. I suppose it's most likely the die adjustment issue, at least I hope it is. It just seems odd that such an extremely small (1/4 turn) adjustment will make that much of a difference but lets hope it does.



I guess I read an outdated set of instructions. I know how aggravated everybody gets by posters asking questions they can find the answer to elsewhere with some research so I always try to find the answer elsewhere, however, it is nice when you're able to ask people that might have had similar experiences rather than go through more trial and error first. I wish I was lucky enough to have a mentor. I tried to find one here on calguns before but nobody seemed interested.

I'm going to set up my die again tonight to touch the shell holder and give it a go, assuming I can get my 4 month old daughter to sleep before I have to hit the hay myself. Thanks again for the help everybody.

I dont get why people get bent out of shape about this. When this issue is resolved and you find the culprit, thousands of others will be able to serach for this EXACT problem and troubleshoot it.

[Bumslie]

^^^ Since when does a 9mm die have an expander ball?

[bigedp51]

^^^ Since when does a 9mm die have an expander ball?

Since the Germans started making the 9x57 mauser rifle cartridge in the 1880s.

Sorry, I just had to bust your "balls" on this one.

[DS94901]

The verdict is in. I just loaded 50 rounds and had no problems with loose bullets after adjusting my die to touch the SH. It was a nice change to feel all the bullets seating snug instead of some feeling like they slid in with no effort.

Something I noticed that I think compounded the problem of the die being 1/4 turn or so shy of touching the SH is that on my press, if I tighten the die past the SH when the ram is up, the bar/handle will kind of snap into full downward position after it cams over (when sizing). When it does this it leaves a gap between the die and the shell holder as if the ram is somehow being pushed/pulled down. I ended up adjusting my die tight against the SH then going maybe 1/8 of a turn further and on the downward stroke, refraining from allowing the press to make that full downward "snap" but ensuring the die and SH contact each other. I also tried a slightly larger OAL of 1.148 which might have also made a difference. Perhaps 1.125 was pushing the bullets past a stable holding point. Regardless, this method is working out and all bullets are seated nicely. Checked OAL on every few rounds before and after a finger squeeze test and there was no bullet movement.

Thanks to everybody that offered advice and shared info. Feeling much better!

[J-cat]

Something is wrong with your die. A quarter turn should have absolutely zero effect on case tension. What you described means that only .050" of your case is actually holding the bullet. You are likely to have setback issues.

[bigedp51]

DS94901

Give your loaded ammo the "push test" by putting the bullet against your reloading bench and pushing on the cartridge case. If the bullet doesn't move you have more than enough neck tension to hold the bullet in position.

You should do this test with all types and manufacture of your cases due to variations in case thickness.

I only taper crimp the case mouth .001 to .002 smaller than the normal outside diameter of the case because I shoot a lot of plated bullets. Also note the expander diameter has a lot to do with bullet tension/grip and the spring back rate of your brass. "IF" you are using range pick up brass the neck tension can vary due to work hardening and the older cases inability to hold its grip on your bullets. Your expander must be small enough in diameter to hold "ALL" your bullets in place with the taper crimp being the secondary "holding method" of your bullets.

"40lb Crimp Test" Fact/Fiction or Bologna

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=374063

NOTE: Unclenick above is always a wealth of information on "any" reloading subject and has been at it a very long time.

I have "NO" complaints with my Lee dies as you can see below and this 50 round group and using plated Rainier bullets.



As long as you use the right equipment and its properly adjusted you can hold anything in place.

[DS94901]

Something is wrong with your die. A quarter turn should have absolutely zero effect on case tension. What you described means that only .050" of your case is actually holding the bullet. You are likely to have setback issues.

It doesn't look like that's the case at least. I notice with lots of reloads in particular how you can slightly see the contour of the bullet in the case and I can see it in these snug rounds. I measured a handful of the case mouths on the rounds where the bullets fell through (prior to my current die adjustment) and they were all between .378-.382. After adjusting the die to touch the shell holder +1/8 turn they are measuring .374-.375
I guess I'll find out soon if I'm going to have issues. Lets hope not.

DS94901

Give your loaded ammo the "push test" by putting the bullet against your reloading bench and pushing on the cartridge case. If the bullet doesn't move you have more than enough neck tension to hold the bullet in position.

You should do this test with all types and manufacture of your cases due to variations in case thickness.

I only taper crimp the case mouth .001 to .002 smaller than the normal outside diameter of the case because I shoot a lot of plated bullets. Also note the expander diameter has a lot to do with bullet tension/grip and the spring back rate of your brass. "IF" you are using range pick up brass the neck tension can vary due to work hardening and the older cases inability to hold its grip on your bullets. Your expander must be small enough in diameter to hold "ALL" your bullets in place with the taper crimp being the secondary "holding method" of your bullets.

Yeah I did the test and had zero problems with any rounds. Even measured to make sure there was no movement. Once I separate rounds by case length/head stamp I'll start giving them a very slight crimp just to besure everything is extra secure.

[J-cat]

You don't get it. A quarter turn of the die will size the case only that much further down. You need at least the length of the bullet shank sized. That means the top .2" to .3" of the case needs to be sized tight enough to hold the bullet. If your prior setting was not sizing the top third of the case sufficiently to hold the bullet, then another quarter turn will not either. A quarter turn does not equate to .2" or .3". It equates to .017".

So your bullet is being held by .017" of case. That's actually less than the amount of taper crimp you're applying.