Need help with 450 Bushmaster loads.

[GunNut]

284/450B

LOL! Thought I muddied the water on this thread!! The work is going about the same as Slash2 attemp! Out of 200 cases I now have 60! most just cut too short. But, 60 nice drilled cases and I'm learning! drilled to.20 leaves a shoulder for the bullet to seat against. A medium crimp takes care of the rest. Maybe drilling cases is like using the wrong fork at a formal diner. I think I'll hover around 41grns of Lil gun with the 230grnFMJ in the 284 cases. The sierras work best"thickest jacket" and I'm still shooting!

How's your work going, Gun Nut? Guess no one wants to handle your question. You're not going to like the answer but, there is no hard and fast rule here. Every time I think I can make a definitive statement about primers...OOPS... The cases vary, the powders very, ect, ect. One must work up the loads, no matter which primer they use. That's the easy answer and the one that's going to get me into trouble, because everyone has an opinion and they are all right. But, I stand by my answer, gotta do the work 'ol man..

Safety First..t

[Siringo]

LOL! Thought I muddied the water on this thread!! The work is going about the same as Slash2 attemp! Out of 200 cases I now have 60! most just cut too short. But, 60 nice drilled cases and I'm learning! drilled to.20 leaves a shoulder for the bullet to seat against. A medium crimp takes care of the rest. Maybe drilling cases is like using the wrong fork at a formal diner. I think I'll hover around 41grns of Lil gun with the 230grnFMJ in the 284 cases. The sierras work best"thickest jacket" and I'm still shooting!

Maybe we should all contact Starline and request that they provide cases for the 450. Also, what about a drill/reamer to create a SR pocket to a LR? There should be a centering pin on the tool that would be the same size as the flash hole.

[BD1]

GunNut, are you drilling fired cases, or sized cases? It will be interesting to see how the ledge at the end of the drilled section effects case life. You could investigate this by marking one case, and then load and fire that same case ten times, cut it in half lengthwise and have a look.

I can't think of another case with an internal ledge like that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a good thing. On one hand, if accurately placed it would help prevent bullet set back. On the other hand it will prevent those same cases from accepting a longer bullet.

BD

[GunNut]

284 cases

I'm drilling virgin brass, cut and trimmed 1st, then drilled and sized. The cases still look thicker then factory. I'm with you on the ledge. I guess only time will tell on case life. I'm set on the 230grFMJ. Same bullet I use in my 1911, I do use lead ball in my pistol for plinking. but,they would evaporate at these speeds!
Well, I know how to make them now. Making more should be less expensive.
and I can still get the large rifle primers. I'll keep them in lot's of 50 to track case life. You should be getting a sample case & bullet soon. Thanks to ALL of you for your help!

GunNut, are you drilling fired cases, or sized cases? It will be interesting to see how the ledge at the end of the drilled section effects case life. You could investigate this by marking one case, and then load and fire that same case ten times, cut it in half lengthwise and have a look.

I can't think of another case with an internal ledge like that, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's not a good thing. On one hand, if accurately placed it would help prevent bullet set back. On the other hand it will prevent those same cases from accepting a longer bullet.

BD

[Wildcatter]

Couple of thoughts here. How are we maintaining the Concentricity of the inside of the case. In other words, could we be cutting off more material from one side of the case, thus weakening it? Years ago when we were building the 45 Auto-mag pistol case from 308 brass, we had to ream them, much like what you are doing today. We had a drill jig, that held the case, in a similar fashion as FL die might. With the case fully supported the upper portion of the jig held the reamer dead center of the case axis and Bingo, a concentric ID reamed case. A jig could be made up using a 284 FL die, with the neck area opened up to except the reamer and then chucking the reamer in a drill motor, with a stop on the flutes, to keep the reamer at samey-same depths..

Had about a three hour conversation today with a high end Whites Lab SAAMI guy about measuring bolt thrust. I told him my misgivings with the quaint little formulas used to model the bolt thrusts (remember what my father-in-law says about modeling .."until you take it to the track, you'll never know"..), that they don't work and that Bernoulli's theorem only explained why my experience with straight cases was working but little to forecast success. I'll remind you all here, the 450b has less bolt thrust than the 223, period, with one qualifier and that is, in dry and cleaned chambers, and chambers that are NOT over polished (you guys all know do clean ALL of the case lube off the cases after sizing, RIGHT? If you don't you're going to break bolts and this in any weapon, KEEP THEM CLEAN AND THE CHAMBERS CLEAN AND DRY TOO!!). I built a copper crusher for a 223 and a 45 pro and verified the lessor bolt thrust for the 45, for a Wayne State University Engineering Team, that included Jim Sullivan, the real inventor of the M16 system. The study was latter printed in one of the gun rags, look it up. But this Whites Lab guy, emailed an answer than I will cut and paste here and should prove very interesting. Quote.."I am not sure what you mean by "modern modeling calculations. If you are attempting to forecast pressures from algorithms, that's a big trap with way too many variables. QuickLoad for example can easily be off by +/- 50%"... End quote.

Let's not argue who's program is better, they all have great worth, but algorithmatic formulas are a POOR indicators of bolt thrust, that is at least, in some applications..

The good news is he gave me a contact for solving the problem, in a much easier and cheaper way than I was contemplating and then have White's Lab verify the results at $500 bucks a round.. White's Lab needs 12 rounds, throwing out the high and low results and keeping the middle ten for the report. My method, which would have worked and all reasonable people would have excepted the results, but my plan was $15-$20 Grand..OK-OK, I can Brain Fart too!!! Leave me alone..wink

Safety First..t

[BD1]

A couple of thoughts:

The .284 brass I'm playing with has between 4 and 6 more grains of H2O capacity than the brass GunNut is using. Both are Winchester headstamps, but mine is used .284/6mm, and GunNuts is apparently new. It is possible that the multiple firings and resizings of my cases has moved enough brass forward, where it was trimmed off, to account for this difference. But another possibility is that different lots of brass, produced years apart, may have different wall thickness with resulting differences in internal case capacity. In Midways catalog I see that Hornady, Nosler, and Norma, offer 6.5/.284 brass. It's possible that one of those may more suitable for cutting down to .450B

MSC industrial offers a .4480 straight flute chucking reamer. I ordered one yesterday. I am going to try sizing my trimmed brass and then hand reaming it in the same way you would inside neck ream a wildcat case to remove the "doughnut". I'm thinking that lightly stoning a leade onto the cutting flutes should make the reamer self centering. I'll let you know how that works. I'm hoping for .002 neck tension which has worked for me in the past on bottle neck cases from .223 to .308

One of the things that makes ballistics such an interesting hobby, is that it is not entirely understood. Many new firearm and cartridge developments have come about as the result of someone who just had an interest develope into an obssesion until it all got worked out. Hiram Maxim invented the cartridge operated machinegun, (no need to crank it by hand), when he was only 16 years old. He couldn't convince anyone with the capability to build one to make it until he hand carved a complete cycling model out of wood to demonstrate the idea.

All models are just educated guesses at what's going on. A "good" model lets you fine tune that guess as you develope additional data. You can do this somewhat with QuickLoad by using chrony data. I have no idea how you'd develope data to fine tune the bolt thrust algorithm without building some sort of expansion stress reading test chamber using something along the lines of the Oehler 43. Even then I'd think you'd need something to calibrate it against so it would have to be capable of chambering a variety of cartridges.

BD

[GunNut]

once again the reloading Gods are right! Drilling does leave the cases non uniform "inside". The tapper crimp takes most of this out and we are not talking much. For now, I have ammo that works and is fairly accurate. The fine tuning begins! Forster makes a .452 inside reamer I hope/ will work with my lyman power trimmer to trim and ream at the same time. on order. Once I have uniform standard cases I can start on the powder charges. Which brings me to swatting a hornets nest!! Which software is the best and how much does it cost!!

[Siringo]

BTW, I e-mailed Buffalo Arms and Starline to see if they had plans for 450 B brass. Both said no. I was surprised by Starline.

[GunNut]

I think Remington is going to start producing them. Just wish they will have Large primer pockets.

[Slash2]

To date, a 200gr bullet going 3100fps+ (and speeds are safely going up) and apparently slapping the target 3x-5x harder than the 458win-mag!!!! I say apparently, because, the 458wm control gun is displacing 3-5x less material than the 450b-Kill Bullet does.

Update on the Kill Bullet, we're now fully 700+ fps above factory with a 257gr bullet, with only slightly more pressure and I mean very slightly.

Anyone want to speculate on Wildcatters "kill Bullet"?

I'm guessing a Hornady GMX (gilded metal solid) bullet around 230 grains travelling at 3000 fps.

[BD1]

If we're throwing guesses, I'll guess a heavy jacket, bonded lead core bullet with a small elastomer filled HP. I suppose it would depend on what we're planning to kill with the "kill" bullet.

BD

[450BOOMER]

I just got some 450b brass from MidSouth; $39/50 still in stock.

Some of you are having way too much fun experimenting...

Drilling cases isn't an accepted practice... please don't try this at home; full power loads could be dangerous.

Wildcatter and several members here have given you some good info if you read through the thread. Be careful, and approach experiments with respect for your safety and the safety of others. Be aware that what you post here may be misused by someone without the experience and understanding to duplicate your results safely.

Boomer

[GunNut]

Thanks Boomer! I should have put that disclaimer in myself! I have destroyed 60 cases trying to make this work. Drilling works if you are careful. BUT, Reaming works much better! Got a .452 reamer from forster and had the shaft turned to fit the cutting head on my power trimmer with excellent results. Nice even ledge at the seating depth all the way around. My guess is the next problem will be crimping, Which we have talked about here with several methods available....Please Don't try this case thing unless you have been reloading for awhile. Thanks Again All!

[Wildcatter]

I'd like to say right spot on, for the last two post. Thanks Boomer and Gun Nut. I myself would not ream cases without some sort of drill Jig to hold the reamer dead center of the case center line. I did described one type, using a FL 284 Sizer Die, there are many others... Gun Nut? What's your thought about leaving the case alone and resizing the bullets instead. A Lee, Luber-Sizer cost less than $40 and Ebay or Guns America, etc., and might find them for considerably less. Wouldn't this much less work? Just wondering what you may be thinking.. And as for speculation about the kill bullet, I think that Wildman Wildcatter is using Dilithium Crystals..wink

Safety First..t

[GunNut]

.4515 bullets

Well, The 230grn fmj sierras work just fine in my 1911 & XD. along with lead ball. If push comes to shove, I have 1 bullet for 3 guns, well 4, Star PD. So, 1 bullet for 4 guns. The real problem is the lack of small rifle primers. I have a good stock of Large ones and a sourse for more for my AR 10 "308". Getting the 284 cases to work is a big plus! Same bullet & large rife primers. Good supply as of now. The drilling served to prove the need for reaming. Drilled cases funtioned great! But, acuracy suxed! Starting with new cases cut to 1.68 and reamed in a power trimmer look really good. Nice even ledge all the way around at seating depth should take care of bullet set back when feeding from a mag. Bullet jump forward? another story. I hope the factory tapper crimp die works. If not, I'll try the lee factory crimp for the 45acp/auto rim. Anyone tried this? Thanks Again to All you brave souls! : )

I'd like to say right spot on, for the last two post. Thanks Boomer and Gun Nut. I myself would not ream cases without some sort of drill Jig to hold the reamer dead center of the case center line. I did described one type, using a FL 284 Sizer Die, there are many others... Gun Nut? What's your thought about leaving the case alone and resizing the bullets instead. A Lee, Luber-Sizer cost less than $40 and Ebay or Guns America, etc., and might find them for considerably less. Wouldn't this much less work? Just wondering what you may be thinking.. And as for speculation about the kill bullet, I think that Wildman Wildcatter is using Dilithium Crystals..wink

Safety First..t