Need help with 450 Bushmaster loads.

[GunNut]

OH! they shoot just fine. but, not as accurate as the factory ammo. I'll just have to play with the loads and large primers to get that right. Hopefull pushing a good 230grn FMJ to around 2750! that's my goal.

[Wildcatter]

I cut them to 1.68 thinking it was + 0, -.03 of the 1.7 max. I drilled them because of 2 things. 1st, they passed the "thunk" test. but, when chambered from the mag I could not manually eject them. Had to unlock the bolt and run a cleaning rod down the barrel and they just droped out. My thinking was they were acting like a wedge anchor when the bullet jumped forward. 2nd, with the thick case walls and a heavy crimp on a cheap jacketed bullet I was getting jacket separation. I'm talking hitting the dirt at 25yrds. no more cheap bullets for me! Sierra's for me. I'm thinking of drilling them to the seating depth of the 230grn. tournamet masters. which I think is .20 to give me an OAL of 2.15. New to this. and anything would be helpful.
P.S the Sierra's work great in my 1911 & XD 45.

Ok, Ok, your doing good, you might want to keep the cases a little longer. Have you tried my side crimp yet? It might stop any bullet travel during chambering. I use the 230's for nearly all missions. When I need penetration I use Ball; penetration and wound channel, I use the fmj-fp; and if over penetration is an issue, use the 230 hollow points, they fragment totally and wont penetrate anything..

Safety First..t

[GunNut]

Thanks! I'll cut the next ones to 1.7 "can always cut them more"and drill them to.20 for the tournament masters which are a .4515 dia. x .633 Long. I haven't tried the side crimp, thinking it was for the heavy lead bullets.

[GunNut]

oh! these are Winchester 284 case's. Maybe they run a little thicker and I have a tight chamber?

[Wildcatter]

Generally speaking don't go over 1.700 and not under 1.690, that's the standard, set by me, that now has been adopted and reset by SAMII. For accuracy stay as close to 1.7, without going over..BTW, (a little history here) because SAMII has set a standard, the 450b is a Bonafide Factory Round. The other Big Bore AR's are not SAMII regulated, therefore by definition, are only Wildcats, I know those shooters don't like the reference because their Honey has been around for a little while and they think much of their inferior product..wink, but then hey, it took the 35 Whelen, what, 65 years to become a Remington Factory Round adopted by SAMII, but then again some people have problems with reality, something we, on this thread, ONLY deal in..Your doing good GunNut..

Safety First..t

[GunNut]

284/450B cases

Thanks for the tip! I like a lot of other things Tight! Wink. : )
I think I may be on to something. the 29/64ths drill is .453 dia. allowing for brass annealing and expandtion they end up being around .452 inside when cool. and drilling for the exact same bullet seating depth. Now, you have a custom fit case to bullet. The Sierra's have a heavy jacket and are very consistant in weight and diameter. They are now my standard for all my .45 cal weapons. My pistols are loose and don't care what you shove in them! LOL!

[BD1]

Why are you guys wanting to ream the brass? It would seem that you'd be losing neck tension big time and making the problem with the bullet jumping into the lands even worse? Why not use an expander die?

A 230 grain .451 jacketed bullet in a clean, sized and expanded case with a light taper crimp should have more than enough neck tension to keep it in place. This is the exact same situation as a .45 ACP, but with even thicker brass. Untold millions of 230 grain .45 acps have been fed through all manner of autoloaders over the years without bullet jump issues. Now, when you go to heavier bullets, and lubed cast boolits, neck tension alone may not do the trick. But for a 230 JHP there should be no problem.

GunNut,
That 230 grain load over 40 grains of Lilgun should not be close to the edge at all. A WAG from quickload puts it at 31,500 psi/2,163 fps out of a 16" barrel, if the OAL is 2.120 or greater. It's only a WAG as I don't have that bullet name in the data base. If you have the sierra # off the end of the box, and the real OAL I can get closer.

BD

[GunNut]

BD1, I'm drilling Winchester 284 brass, which is thicker and with a medium tapper crimp to get it to chamber it damages the jacket and acts like a wedge ancher when trying to eject manualy. The Siearra bullet # 8815, 230grn. FMJ is what I'm using now. What load would push it to 2800fps. This is large rifle primer brass. I agree with what you said about the 45acp. The brass is thiner and my chambers have been throuted in my pistols. No feed or chamber problems.

[450BOOMER]

I don't understand why you guys are reaming brass unless the bullets are very long and bulging the brass at the base of the bullet. If this is so... don't ream the cases on the inside. You'll never be able to replace good bullet tension with a crimp. Run a mandrel inside the case to move the brass outside and turn the body like neck turning cases. Sinclair International has the mandrel and the die body you need.

This is way too much work... if the brass is too thick at the bullet's base get some Hornady brass for your long bullets and use the 284 cases for the photon torpedoes (230FMJ's @ 2500fps+).

The easiest and most accurate way to load cast bullets or larger than normal bullets is to prep cases with a Lyman "M" die, seat bullets and crimp as a separate step.

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/catalogue-download/pdf/Dies-and-Die-Sets.pdf

Paraphrased from Lyman's sales pitch:
"Improves accuracy of cast and jacketed bullet reloads. Doesn’t stretch cases as does a standard expander button in bottle-neck cases. Many reloaders consider Lyman’s Neck Expanding (M) Die a valuable tool for improving the accuracy of their reloads. The die’s expander plug has two steps.
1) The first step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter for precise case neck tension in the finished reload.
2) The second step expands the case mouth to bullet diameter or slightly over. This allows the jacketed or cast bullet to be started perfectly centered in the case mouth and properly aligned with the axis of the case neck.
NOTE: By adjusting the neck expanding plug slightly deeper, Step 2 also provides a slight flaring of the case mouth for reloaders using cast bullets."

These cost ~$14 and improve the quality of your loads. You can change bullet tension by changing the diameter of the expander plug. The step left in the case makes it possible to seat oversize bullets with increased bullet tension accurately without damage. The 45 ACP or 45 Colt "M" die works fine. The expander die that comes with the Hornady die set for the 450b is pretty good and does the same job within Hornady's specifications; however, the Lyman "M" die give you additional options to modify loads at a reasonable cost.

Boomer

[GunNut]

284/450b cases

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree! The main reason for going to the 284 case is the non exiting supply of small rifle primers. I need to save my stock for my AR15 5.56. I have plenty of large rifle primers for my AR10 .308 and can still get more. If I want to keep shooting my 450B I need to go to large primer brass. The brass is thicker.. If I seat a .451 bullet with a light crimp it will not chamber.. If I use a heavy crimp it chambers, but, damagers the jacket and causes separation and also makes them act as a wedge anchor and impossable to eject manualy. I've heard of people turning the inside of cases. but not the outside. Maybe this Winchester brass is like Nato 7.62, just thicker and I need to find another brand? Thanks for all the help!

[Slash2]

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree! The main reason for going to the 284 case is the non exiting supply of small rifle primers. I need to save my stock for my AR15 5.56. I have plenty of large rifle primers for my AR10 .308 and can still get more. If I want to keep shooting my 450B I need to go to large primer brass. The brass is thicker.. If I seat a .451 bullet with a light crimp it will not chamber.. If I use a heavy crimp it chambers, but, damagers the jacket and causes separation and also makes them act as a wedge anchor and impossable to eject manualy. I've heard of people turning the inside of cases. but not the outside. Maybe this Winchester brass is like Nato 7.62, just thicker and I need to find another brand? Thanks for all the help!

It's easy to understand why you would like to get these cases to work, they are cheaper than 450 brass and it would give you some flexibility. I ran into the same problem as you though, the case is too thick at the base of the bullet.
Could you chop off the top of a sizing die and run them through the sizer after they're loaded?

[GunNut]

I just came from the range. Drilling works! Drill here! Drill often! Wildcater is right, Keep the 284 cases @ 1.7 to 1.69! Had a few light primer strikes @ 1.68. Used a 29/64ths bit. Drill to .20 deep for my .4515 230grn Sierra's.#8815. Giving me a 2.15 OAL. I would not drill any more then needed. It does anneal the case. medium crimp, no bullet jump, chambered and ejected maually just fine. 40grn of LIL Gun worked. but, 41 worked better with a tighter group. primers even looked lighter! go figure. beyond me! next, find out what 42-45grns looks like. Can anyone run these loads for me? 230grn FMJ, 42-45grns of Lil gun, CCI #34 primers. Thanks for all the help guy's!!! This brings back the day's of Hot Roding the small block Chevy!

[BD1]

GunNut,

If I use MY Hornady brass for data, Quickload tells me that 43.5 grains of LilGun under the Sierra 8815 generates 39,800 psi and 2321 fps out of a 16" barrel. Thats at a COAL of 2.150. As you are using different cases, and drilling them, I'd need a case capacity in grains of water for YOUR brass to get an accurate model. I don't mind doing some load calcs, but we should do it via PMs as they are particular to brass and load, and this thread is way long already. We should just post general conclusions here.

Also, load calcs are just estimates until you adjust them to some chrony data out of the firearm in question. Every gun is a law unto itself for pressure and velocity.
BD

[GunNut]

Thank's for the info! Looks like I have plenty of room to move up. I'll jump to 44grns and move up from there. Still not sure how much the large primes are effecting these loads. I was @ 45grns with the small ones. Anyone?

[Wildcatter]

How's your work going, Gun Nut? Guess no one wants to handle your question. You're not going to like the answer but, there is no hard and fast rule here. Every time I think I can make a definitive statement about primers...OOPS... The cases vary, the powders very, ect, ect. One must work up the loads, no matter which primer they use. That's the easy answer and the one that's going to get me into trouble, because everyone has an opinion and they are all right. But, I stand by my answer, gotta do the work 'ol man..

Safety First..t