Need help with 450 Bushmaster loads.

[Wildcatter]

Hey Gun Nut your pretty awesome yourself..The Remington 450 Bushmaster rendition is putting our work on the map and making the 450b the standard in Factory Ammo Big Bore AR's, no garage built stuff for us!! FYI: There are some other Majors that will be jumping on the Band Wagon, coming soon, as they say.

Ok, Ok,...just for the teasers and complainers, yes I just put some stuff up in the Biography area. It won't be enough, space was very limited, but there ya awl go..

Safety First..t

[GunNut]

How much?

Thanks! I showed my case's to my local gunsmith and was told that my reloads were not generating as much pressure as the factory loads. He decline to recommend any increase not knowing much about this round and gun and I was already past the factory load in energy. What would be a safe increase? Shooting this beast is better than Viagra!!

[Wildcatter]

Thanks! I showed my case's to my local gunsmith and was told that my reloads were not generating as much pressure as the factory loads. He decline to recommend any increase not knowing much about this round and gun and I was already past the factory load in energy. What would be a safe increase? Shooting this beast is better than Viagra!!

Ok, so you are at 45gr of lil-gun and a 6 1/2 Rem Primer, with a heavy crimp and lower pressures than the factory fodder. Now, the real question is whether or not you can read pressure signs with proficiency? And I need you to tell us if you are or not? We've got the help you need, use it. We are not like those other boards who castigate others with lessor experience, we all were new at some time or other.

I have little experience with 'lil-gun, it is faster than 296/H110 and thus you shouldn't be able to use as much powder.

Your thought of going up .5gr is way too small of an increase if your handloads are really a lower pressure than Factory Loads now. I myself would start at 1gr+ increments, shooting no more than three rounds, look for pressure after each shot and go up in +1gr increments for each three rd string, paying very close attention to the pressure signs. If you start to see the little ring from the ejector or the dent from the extractor on the base of the case, you'd better stop and back off about three grains, allowing for dirt and gunk. Overly flat primers are also a high pressure sign. If this isn't clear don't use any of it. Keep in mind you need to know how much powder is a "Just Right" compressed load. In previous posts I described a method of finding that out through sacrificing a case and filling the cartridge with powder through the flash hole, refer to it. If you get to the predetermined max powder amount, for your cartridge set-up and still haven't hit the max pressure limit, then you are going to have to go to a slower powder, if max speeds are the goal. But, I repeat, you must be able to read and heed the pressure signs, which there are far more than I have listed here!!

I'm sure there are many other opinions and suggestions, let's hear them, that Gun Nut will be forewarned and Fore-Armed, not everybody uses the same methods and most of the guys that post here are as sharp as tacks. AR-15 Barrels is a wonderful leveling source. Randal?

Safety First..t

[ar15barrels]

I'm sure there are many other opinions and suggestions, let's hear them, that Gun Nut will be forewarned and Fore-Armed, not everybody uses the same methods and most of the guys that post here are as sharp as tacks. AR-15 Barrels is a wonderful leveling source. Randal?

I advise against trying to use pressure signs on this cartridge due to the potential thrust levels involved.
I'm just sitting here patiently waiting for the pictures of grenaded bolts when the pressure threshold is finally discovered.
Mark my words, bolts are going to blow before pressure signs are clearly evident as they would be in a stronger action working at these otherwise safe pressure levels.

[Siringo]

I advise against trying to use pressure signs on this cartridge due to the potential thrust levels involved.
I'm just sitting here patiently waiting for the pictures of grenaded bolts when the pressure threshold is finally discovered.
Mark my words, bolts are going to blow before pressure signs are clearly evident as they would be in a stronger action working at these otherwise safe pressure levels.

Randall -- does the Quick Load program allow the user to enter a custom bullet into the bullet data base. I am strongly thinking of purchasing this software.

[GunNut]

How much?

Ok, so you are at 45gr of lil-gun and a 6 1/2 Rem Primer, with a heavy crimp and lower pressures than the factory fodder. Now, the real question is whether or not you can read pressure signs with proficiency? And I need you to tell us if you are or not? We've got the help you need, use it. We are not like those other boards who castigate others with lessor experience, we all were new at some time or other.

I have little experience with 'lil-gun, it is faster than 296/H110 and thus you shouldn't be able to use as much powder.

Your thought of going up .5gr is way too small of an increase if your handloads are really a lower pressure than Factory Loads now. I myself would start at 1gr+ increments, shooting no more than three rounds, look for pressure after each shot and go up in +1gr increments for each three rd string, paying very close attention to the pressure signs. If you start to see the little ring from the ejector or the dent from the extractor on the base of the case, you'd better stop and back off about three grains, allowing for dirt and gunk. Overly flat primers are also a high pressure sign. If this isn't clear don't use any of it. Keep in mind you need to know how much powder is a "Just Right" compressed load. In previous posts I described a method of finding that out through sacrificing a case and filling the cartridge with powder through the flash hole, refer to it. If you get to the predetermined max powder amount, for your cartridge set-up and still haven't hit the max pressure limit, then you are going to have to go to a slower powder, if max speeds are the goal. But, I repeat, you must be able to read and heed the pressure signs, which there are far more than I have listed here!!

I'm sure there are many other opinions and suggestions, let's hear them, that Gun Nut will be forewarned and Fore-Armed, not everybody uses the same methods and most of the guys that post here are as sharp as tacks. AR-15 Barrels is a wonderful leveling source. Randal?

Safety First..t

Thanks! and No I Do Not know how to read pressure signs. I have reloaded in the past for my 1911. Just pick a load out of the manuel and stay between the min & max. Work up to the most accurate. Have the local gunsmith check the cases. Thats not the case here! No load date available yet. Just finding you guys and reading the posts has opened up a whole new world of reloading. One where few dare to tread! Had my local smith look at the cases. He pointed out that the factory primers had a sharp edge on them and mine did not. No other signs on either. I do have a need for speed! I would like to find a load that would put me about 2" high @ 100yrs and 2" low @ 200yrs. From what I have gathered thats about the effective range for this cartridge. Anything greater then that and I'll get out my AR10 in 308. Plenty of data for that round! Sooo. It looks like 1 grain at a time with patience.
Thanks again to the reloading Gods!
btw; I once liked to hot rod the small block chevy. Had a vega station wagon with a 350 in it. A real sleeper! Got clocked @ 165mph! This is much safer!

[Wildcatter]

Randall of AR15Barels, is right you know. I will say that in using 296 and 1680 and 230gr bullets and loads far far hotter than seen here, for years and years, I've never broken a bolt. I have broken them with a 223 and seen many other 223 broken bolts, they have one thing in common, they shear a lug, that's it, put a new bolt in and keep on shooting. That's not to say your results will be the same, but I repeat Randall is right. And just because I and some of these others here have a great deal of experience and are very successful, doesn't mean you can do what we do. But, if you got the cahones to drive a Vega Wagon @165mph..well this really is much safer and a bolt @$65 isn't equal to a blown 350 Chevy at $25,000++.. But like my Dad always told me.."take everything from life, everything, that life has to offer..and then pay for it". Gents, we can't make an omelet here without breaking a few eggs and in this case some bolts will probably break. I also own Quick Load and some far better programs as well and they don't tell all of the story. Here's the real scoop on this topic.. My Father-in-Law just retired as the Crank of all Car Cranks in GM's research lab, GM's CEO staff personally begged him not to leave. Dad and I were at the Bonneville Salt Flats this summer helping the Car Cranks there go really-really fast, and there were thousands of them there, and what ever tent he poked his head under to look at what the guys are doing in the staging area, the clouds separate and they spoke of him in hushed tones. Well, Dad here, tells me all the time something that very well applies here.."modeling shore does help son, but then we excuse ourselves from the computer Engineers and go do the real development outside of the lab, on the track, on the streets"..meaning go break some eggs or you'll never find out what your looking for. He's coming to work here at LeMAG, that will be a great day for us... I personally can't and haven't broke a 450 bolt, but I better put in the caveat of "Yet". Now, you are truly on your own, and getting hurt is possible, and as I said Randall is definitely right and really is a wonderfully great leveling force and his admonitions better be very well heeded.. Now, go make an earth, but...

Safety First..t

[Wildcatter]

P.S... Gun Nut, the effective range range for some of these loads are already past 300yds and I have loads I shoot at deer and easily harvest harvest them at 600+. Don't let me shoot at you at 1000yds, I'm not saying I will hit you with one shot, but two-three-four..., well let's just say that there is enough frontal mass and energy left over to ruin a day (ok guys, this is just a colorful example, don't have a cow)..

Safety First..t

[ar15barrels]

Randall -- does the Quick Load program allow the user to enter a custom bullet into the bullet data base.

Yes.

[ar15barrels]

I advise against trying to use pressure signs on this cartridge due to the potential thrust levels involved.
I'm just sitting here patiently waiting for the pictures of grenaded bolts when the pressure threshold is finally discovered.
Mark my words, bolts are going to blow before pressure signs are clearly evident as they would be in a stronger action working at these otherwise safe pressure levels.

And just so people don't think I am picking on the 450 bushmaster or something, you have to apply the same caution to all the large case-head cartridges being wildcatted on the AR-15 action that are fully capable of exceeding the acceptable thrust levels.
Those would be: 6.5 Grendel, 50 Beowulf, 458 Socom, 499 Leitnerwise, 50 Thunder Sabre etc.
The issue is that pressure signs appear above say 55,000 PSI or so, but the bolt thrust levels of some of these large case heads is only going to be around 35,000 PSI.
So, in order to see pressure signs, you have to exceed the safe working pressures of the cartridges.

It's a chicken/egg problem...

[GunNut]

300yrds

All I can say is WOW! I don't even know of a range around here thats over 200yrds. I really like to shoot more then hunt. Sort of like driving a hot rod, push the limits to see just how much you can get out of it! And I might blow a bolt. I've blown engines! This is much cheaper and safer. going to 46 grains with caution.

[Slash2]

I would like to find a load that would put me about 2" high @ 100yrs and 2" low @ 200yrs.

I've been aiming for that kind of performance too GunNut, using a 200 gr Barnes X copper bullet. According to the Hornady ballistics calculator I need to push that bullet at about 2650 fps to achieve the 2 high @ 100 2 low @ 200 mark. I've gotten to around 2550 fps so far using Lil Gun at near case capacity.


As far as pressure signs, I haven't seen any on the primer or marks on the base at this load. However, according to the Hornady reloading book one should also be looking at the case where the web is, just above the base, if this area expands more than .001" after firing then you have excessive pressure.

At my next session at the range I will be measuring the case web diameter before and after each shot.

[ar15barrels]

Sort of like driving a hot rod, push the limits to see just how much you can get out of it! And I might blow a bolt. I've blown engines! This is much cheaper and safer. going to 46 grains with caution.

When you blow a bolt, it sometimes takes your vision or a bunch of skin with it though.
You don't hear about people going blind or being injured by blowing engines because you generally have a firewall between you and the engine.
Remember that the gun is against your face.

http://www.quarterbore.com/ar15m16/ar15kaboom.html

[GunNut]

Kaboom!

When you blow a bolt, it sometimes takes your vision or a bunch of skin with it though.
You don't hear about people going blind or being injured by blowing engines because you generally have a firewall between you and the engine.
Remember that the gun is against your face.



http://www.quarterbore.com/ar15m16/ar15kaboom.html

Holly Shet!! What was he using? C-4? I think this project is going to be self limiting anyway. I'm about out of case capacity. I'm not breaking new ground. I'm just following the guild and enjoying the scenery.

I do know about safty & caution. I'm an industrial electrician of 35yrs. 480volt X 4000amps= MegaWatts of fault current!! Enough to vapories flesh from bone! not to mention you might get electricuted. It takes a certain personality to work with something that can kill you in an instant. OSHA call us a bunch of cowboys.
In this case I'm the apprentice. A little knowledge can be dangerous. I will watch and learn. I've already learned so much in a short time. I thank ALL of you for sharing you knowledge and experience.

[450BOOMER]

I've seen the results of several blowups in my 40 years of of competitive shooting and reloading. Luckily, most of them resulted in no major injury to the shooter, but I've also gained enough respect from the mistakes and misfortunes others have experienced to never believe that loads are safe beyond published factory levels without working things up yourself.

I would never work up loads in one grain increments beyond published maximum factory level in the 450b with H110, 296 or Little Gun. Just changing seating depth from 2.25" to 2.15" with a 230 grain FMJ bullet will change pressures over 10,000 psi... one mistake like this at full case capacity makes a pipe bomb.

Different friction coefficients of lead, copper jacketed lead, thin vs heavy copper jackets, and solid copper bullets can create similar extremes with pressures; as well as differences in primer selection and loading techniques.

I'm not saying high energy loads are or aren't safe in the 450b; what I am saying is that you better know exactly what you're doing and how a small change can make a big difference in your life.

Quickload isn't perfect, but Quickload can help you understand how the variables can change pressures dramatically. Quickload predictions tend to be on the side of warning us about potential danger and staying safe... a good thing.

Boomer