Need help with 450 Bushmaster loads.

[Siringo]

Taking the tip off is a great tip. Now when you seat them to the 2.250", how far into the case are they? It might have been ok to crimp over the ojive, I've done it. The only real problem is if there is a large enough void at the bullet/case mouth junction to pick up junk. The taper crimp would not normaly have over crimped. If you'd only have been only slightly over the ojive, you'd proably have not had any problems, as long as the head-space could be maintained, then maybe. I've shot 308 reloads many times in the AR. To make them fit the magazine the bullet must be seated well deep into the case and at 2.250" OAL, the crimp was way out over the ojive. This was done with perfect success. But with the 450b head-space is another problem to ponder, if one were to try this trick with that Barnes bullet. Of course a dangerous situation could develop if you did try to do this, I'm only trying to expand the thinking here and to examine the possibilities.

Bullet is in the case approximately .36" when the plastic tip is removed.

[Wildcatter]

Bullet is in the case approximately .36" when the plastic tip is removed.

[Siringo]

I will do that, but it may be a week or so. I am traveling all week. I would think that since the seating depth and bearing surface of the bullet is much the same as the Hornady, that I could use their data.

[Wildcatter]

I will do that, but it may be a week or so. I am traveling all week. I would think that since the seating depth and bearing surface of the bullet is much the same as the Hornady, that I could use their data.

Generally speaking, I'd say yes, as their data is so extremely cautious it would be a great starting point. It would seem that you might be able to duplicate Slash's data as well, just watch those pressures/primers.

[shomstead]

I had my big debut at the range yesterday. I am new at loading..when I say new I mean I am a virgin. I have monitored this site closely and all my reading and all your posts have paid off. I had a great time and my loads for the .450 .223 and .40 all went well.

It may have been me but with the .240 XTP's I seemed to be an inch to two inches high at 36.5gr with the H110. The other rounds I had were at 37 and 38 which all seemed to be more accurate.

Again it may have been me since its a new gun with only a couple of boxes of factory put through it.

[Wildcatter]

I had my big debut at the range yesterday. I am new at loading..when I say new I mean I am a virgin. I have monitored this site closely and all my reading and all your posts have paid off. I had a great time and my loads for the .450 .223 and .40 all went well.

It may have been me but with the .240 XTP's I seemed to be an inch to two inches high at 36.5gr with the H110. The other rounds I had were at 37 and 38 which all seemed to be more accurate.

Again it may have been me since its a new gun with only a couple of boxes of factory put through it.

Way cool and welcome to a labor of love that is very satisfying. Beings you are new to the world of reloading you need to be extra, extra conservative. All that you have read here are from highly experienced reloaders and much is not said, in these postings, that are understood between these pro's and semi-pros, and thus great gaps in the total understanding can exists and that data can be dangerous to you. If you stay conservative using Hornady's conservtive, but reliable data, you pretty much can't go wrong. When things start to go wrong or not as you want them to go, just ask the questions and these guys will all be very helpful, they have been there and done that. Other than that, way to go, now you need a chrony to help you along, about a hundred bucks will do that, of course there are alot of $100 dollar items that you'll want, just prioritize them and keep the wife happy and bingo, you to can be a bullet rat...t

[shomstead]

I am heeding your advise and keeping it safe.
I agree with your statement its a labor of love. Or maybe the Zen of shooting?

I'll be able to head back to the range next week. I noticed that my .450 rounds with the H110 at 36.5gr seemed to be a couple inches high compared to the higher gr loads I did which were pretty much on the money. So many variables I know, but wondered if that may be a normal thing with lower velocity rounds? Im loading a couple more at that powder weight to see if I can duplicate it for next week.

[Wildcatter]

I am heeding your advise and keeping it safe.
I agree with your statement its a labor of love. Or maybe the Zen of shooting?

I'll be able to head back to the range next week. I noticed that my .450 rounds with the H110 at 36.5gr seemed to be a couple inches high compared to the higher gr loads I did which were pretty much on the money. So many variables I know, but wondered if that may be a normal thing with lower velocity rounds? Im loading a couple more at that powder weight to see if I can duplicate it for next week.

Duplication/Repeatability is a good thing, when we're trying to understand things, but I'd not worry one bit about the different loads hitting the target in a specific location while you are working up your loads. After you get the load you desire, then you can site-in for those ballistics, hitting the target just exactly where you want them to go.

A rule of thumb is that the more powder you use, the faster the bullet speeds and thus a flatter trajectory, hence the probable cause of why the faster loads strike the target a little lower than the slower bullets and is most certainly the root cause of your observations.

[ar15barrels]

the faster the bullet speeds and thus a flatter trajectory, hence the probable cause of why the faster loads strike the target a little lower than the slower bullets and is most certainly the root cause of your observations.

Slower bullets spend more time in the barrel.
From the moment the bullet starts moving, the gun starts moving too, mostly rearward, but also upward based on the stock design.
The quicker the bullet exits the barrel, the lower the launch angle.
Slower bullets have a higher launch angle and therefore will tend to hit higher with the same zero.

When you re-adjust zero for slower loads, you are pointing the barrel slightly more downward to get the proper resultant launch angle to get the gun to hit point of aim.

Also note that you should zero how you intend to shoot because a gun on bags on the bench will not jump the same as a gun being shot offhand where your whole body rocks with the recoil.

[Wildcatter]

Slower bullets spend more time in the barrel.
From the moment the bullet starts moving, the gun starts moving too, mostly rearward, but also upward based on the stock design.
The quicker the bullet exits the barrel, the lower the launch angle.
Slower bullets have a higher launch angle and therefore will tend to hit higher with the same zero.

When you re-adjust zero for slower loads, you are pointing the barrel slightly more downward to get the proper resultant launch angle to get the gun to hit point of aim.

Also note that you should zero how you intend to shoot because a gun on bags on the bench will not jump the same as a gun being shot offhand where your whole body rocks with the recoil.

Yeah, what he said...The work and shooting I've done with the ARMY/USMC-MTU Shops more than suggests that recoil as stated has an effect and improper grip and spot-weld can be the major cause to rising hits with increased bullet speeds, in this case it proably is not the culprit, assuming you're a more experienced shooter. But Randal, might have the answer here...We will see other thoughts on this aspect of shooting our reloads and all will be valid, but for now, just shoot for group size and pressure-safety is the watch-word here..

[Siringo]

Generally speaking, I'd say yes, as their data is so extremely cautious it would be a great starting point. It would seem that you might be able to duplicate Slash's data as well, just watch those pressures/primers.

I put together a couple of loads and shot them off this weekend. First of all, I used the 240 gr XTP/Mag w/39 grs of H110 at 150 yards. Rifle was benched. I have a 4 power scope on it. The groups were very poor to say the least. 8 inches -- more like a pattern. My second load was using the barnes 245 gr. Spitfire MZ. This was shot with 38 grs of Lil'gun. All charges where weight and OAL was 2.250 inch. Group at 150 yards was 5 inches high and 4 inches wide.

Lastly I had loaded up 20 rounds using the Barnes TMZ bullet with the plastic tip removed. I seated the bullets of an OAL of 2.250 inches. I started with 34 grs of Lil'gun and in .2 gr increments worked up to 38 grs. 34.0, 34.2, 34.4, ect. I fired each round and then marked the target, then fired another and so on.

As a control -- I fired 5 rounds of factory and at 150 yards my group was dead center on the target and 1.5 inches in size. The rounds that I worked up all shot about 3.5 inches higher. An interesting trend developed:

1. 34.0 grs to 34.6 grs grouped into 2 inches
2. 35.4 grs to 35.8 grs grouped into 1.375 inches
3. 36.4 grs to 36.8 grs grouped into 1.375 inches
4. 37.0 grs to 37.4 grs grouped into 1.25 inches wide by .5 inches high

I had used this technique many times in high power rifles at 300 yards to narrow down testing. In most cases, the bullets in those test would string and then a powder range would group together and the string and another group. However with the 450 at 150 yards, with the exception of #1 above, all 15 shots from 35.4 grs to 38.0 grs grouped into a roughly 4 inch group! Not bad for 3 grs variation.

Next time I do this, I will load 35.6 grs, 36.6 grs and 37.2 grs and see if the accuracy is the same.

BTW -- my target was 150 yards away and I walked to the target to mark the shot 20 times. That is 300 yards 20 times for a total of 3.4 miles. Got my excersize too!

[Siringo]

One more thing -- on the negative side, the copper fouling from these Muzzleloader bullets is horrendous.

[bla]

You may need to chrony your loads to see the real deal here. I found in my loading that loads higher than 36.5 of H110 started to loose speed! and at 38gr about 1 in 5 was 200ft/s slow.

[bla]

One more thing, I was told that they use copper to plate the chrome on the bushy barrels, don't use copper solvents to clean chrome lined bores! use only CLP etc if the chrome is scratched you may ruin your barrel with copper solvents.

[ar15barrels]

One more thing, I was told that they use copper to plate the chrome on the bushy barrels, don't use copper solvents to clean chrome lined bores!

Who told you that?