Impossible Shoulder bump?

[fguffey]

And then there is casting the chamber, there are two reloaders that can cast a chamber and then the rest just go through the motions. And I am the one that was told it could not be done.

There is nothing keeping you from jumping out into the fast lane and showing off, be careful, missing a gear can happen to anyone but if you show off and then miss, but I do not know if it would bother you.

The want to be the go to person was asked on that forum, he did not know, he did say it could not be done, he is still mad and as I have said, "What is it to me this noisy ride". All the reloaader wanted to know was there anyone on the forum that could cast a chamber that would allow for determining the length of the chamber.

The moderator did not allow anyone to step up, he just said "NO!", I knew he did not know and did not want anyone else to know.

F. Guffey

[L4D]

And then there is casting the chamber, there are two reloaders that can cast a chamber and then the rest just go through the motions. And I am the one that was told it could not be done.

There is nothing keeping you from jumping out into the fast lane and showing off, be careful, missing a gear can happen to anyone but if you show off and then miss, but I do not know if it would bother you.

The want to be the go to person was asked on that forum, he did not know, he did say it could not be done, he is still mad and as I have said, "What is it to me this noisy ride". All the reloaader wanted to know was there anyone on the forum that could cast a chamber that would allow for determining the length of the chamber.

The moderator did not allow anyone to step up, he just said "NO!", I knew he did not know and did not want anyone else to know.

F. Guffey

Are you okay?

[fguffey]

I have read here many many times that it is impossible to bump a shoulder with a full length die.

At the same time you were told you can not finish with the same shoulder you started with. When sizing a case the brass does not flow toward the head of the case, it flows toward the neck. When I size a case the brass in the shoulder becomes the brass in the neck and the brass in the case body becomes part of the brass in the shoulder. And eventually I will be required to trim the neck. I suggested reloader scribe the shoulder at the datum, if a reloaders scribes the shoulder at the datum and then sizes the case they will find the datum/scribed line moves toward the neck. It does not move back.

F. Guffey

In the old days the case pictured was called cylinder brass, it did not have a shoulder.

[fguffey]

Are you okay?

Yes, thank you. They missed that part about the Alabama Leg Dog. My son left here and he left me (my wife) a dog. I knew nothing about him , it did not take me long to discover no-one liked my wife's dog. I contacted a couple of dog breeders' in Alabama for help. One group was named "Alabama Blue Pits". They told me I had an Alabama Leg Dog, I asked them what was an Alabama Leg Dog, they claimed it was a dog that was like a lot of people we know, they spend a lot of time trying to hump peoples legs meaning they can dish it out but they can not take it.

F. Guffey

[LynnJr]

At the same time you were told you can not finish with the same shoulder you started with. When sizing a case the brass does not flow toward the head of the case, it flows toward the neck. When I size a case the brass in the shoulder becomes the brass in the neck and the brass in the case body becomes part of the brass in the shoulder. And eventually I will be required to trim the neck. I suggested reloader scribe the shoulder at the datum, if a reloaders scribes the shoulder at the datum and then sizes the case they will find the datum/scribed line moves toward the neck. It does not move back.

F. Guffey

In the old days the case pictured was called cylinder brass, it did not have a shoulder.

If you look at the picture the case does not have a shoulder and yes I can add one where I want it.
And yes we understand very well how brass migrates during the sizing operation and yes I have explained it to you many many times now.
You really miss that dog don't you?

[smoothy8500]

When sizing a case the brass does not flow toward the head of the case, it flows toward the neck.

When I size a case the brass in the shoulder becomes the brass in the neck and the brass in the case body becomes part of the brass in the shoulder.

if a reloaders scribes the shoulder at the datum and then sizes the case they will find the datum/scribed line moves toward the neck.

Yes, we've ALWAYS agreed on this.

[thegiff]

Mr. Guffey, it seems like you are acting like you wrote every reloading book ever written about brass flow, chamber casting, etc. I get the strong impression that you may have talked to one or two people that didn't know something that you did, you learned them something. I'm glad for that.

Brass flow is common knowledge. Chamber casting is common knowledge. There is a new tool out that is really good at measuring insertion force of bullets. It seems you were doing that before, but now it is done electronically.

So anyway the gallery is throwing darts at things you say that don't make sense. You say one thing that makes some sense, then something else that is a non-sequitur and is illogical. Then something else that we all know already, so doesn't add anything new. What I want to see is some pictures of your old experimental setups, I would like to see how you got from here to there back in the day. That would be cool.

A great book on accuracy is by Harold Vaughn, I bought it when it was available. He built his setups and ran experiments on accurizing a 270 win, and then running experiments on bullet jacket concentricity, imbalance, and others to prove the effect of the various factors on accuracy. It seems to me you have done a lot of development, especially with the number of dies you have, yet in the years you have been posting I haven't seen anything that I'm really committed to believing because you go one way then it seems another from post to post where I can't follow your logic.

[fguffey]

There is a new tool out that is really good at measuring insertion force of bullets. It seems you were doing that before, but now it is done electronically.

All a reloader had to do to be accepted as a reloader that knew what he was doing was/is to cut and paste phrases, long before the 'new tool' they found a new word, that word was tension and a new phrase called 'neck tension'. They pretended to know what tension was about. Not my intention but all I did was ask them about 'HOW MANY TENSIONS, HOW DO YOU MEASURE TENSIONS ETC"?

I wasted my time, but I explained I started working in the oil field at 14 years old. I explained to them I started on the floor/inside operating a set of tongs. First day I noticed a huge round disc that was attached to one cable, I did not like the indicator hand jerking back and forth, so I asked. I was told it was a tension gage, I was told it measured the weight of the pipe + drill bit + that the rig was supporting. Long story but someone had to count the number of etc. Later on, I purchased an old airplane, I decided if it cost money to fly I had to learn how to maintain it. I purchased a gage, they said it was a tension gage, again it was marked off in pounds like the other gage.It was not long after that came reloading, I found a small pamphlet from Lyman about lead, bullets and seating bullets. They started with 'bullet hold', I thought that was brilliant but there was a question about bullet hold, how much?
So, when I started seating bullets, I used a bathroom scale to determine bullet hold.

The Internet became infatuated with tension this and that and never once could they or did they ever admit they knew nothing about tension because they could not measure it. And now this 'new tool you speak of is a hydraulic bullet seater with a gage in line with the bump and gage to measure pressure in pounds. And now they have weight cells, problem, the gages are not marked off in tensions, the gages are marked off in pounds

Accuracy? I have built rifles, many years ago I decided to build a rifle. Friends I grew up with were gunsmiths, So I decided to talk to ever smith I know, I could not believe how many of them had trouble answering questions about the chamber. I was not a smith, but I had 3 lathes, I asked them some tuff questions like, "You can't measure the chamber because there is a bolt in it? Before I was through, I figured a way to measure the length of the chamber 3 different ways without a head space gage. I went over to Arlington, Texas to help a friend with a rifle he was building. He could not determine the length of the chamber, he had 24+ head space gages so to simplify the task I offered to modify one of his go-gages to a gage that would be a go-to infinity gage for free.

He insisted he was going to build that rifle with a go-gage length chamber. He had 100 + 03 and 03A3 bolts, I had 35, I offered to measure the effect each bolt had on changing the length of the chamber and then I promised him we would not have a bolt between us that would change the length of the chamber .001". I went to see him about a mill, I purchased the mill. And I do not know what he did about his Rock Island 03 made in 1911.

He contacted a friend or two that were on CSP. They had a chance to help our friend, but it did not happen I told him I wanted to see his new bolt, he said they sent him a bucket full. And the bolt handle had to be straight to be period correct.

F. Guffey

[bigbossman]

Talks in circles, he does.

[fguffey]

I have read here many many times that it is impossible to bump a shoulder with a full length die.

Very good, I said it is impossible to bump a shoulder BACK, I had nothing to do with it, it is a function of the die, the die will not allow you to move/bump a shoulder back. You rookies have never learned to read the press instructions, the press instructions that come with a non-cam over press says the non-came over press is not a bump press.

Cam-over press: The cam-over press instructions say the cam-over press is a bump press. When running the cam-over press through its cycle the press bumps twice. Once when the ram changes directions at the top and again when the ram changes directions at the bottom.

I do not have an infatuation with bump, I do not have a die that was designed to bump. I do not enjoy saying this but there is a big chance I am the only reloader on this forum that understands adjusting a die in a cam over press is different than when adjusting a die in a non cam over press.

I was asked to help a man that had a big cam-over press locked up, he used a pipe to tighten his die, he was an angry man. I walked in and checked the press and then asked him if he knew how much cam over the press had and he did know what a cam over press looked like. I then explained to him we had to remove the die before we could move the handle/ram linkage.

I understand it means nothing to you bumpers, but his press had .035" cam- over. He was supposed to be forming 8mmx378 Winchester cases for a wildcat he was building. He was supposed to wait for me before he started. Again, I know it means nothing to you bumpers but the .035" cam over crushed the case and there were 480 cases to be formed and they were in sets of 20, The bump in the cam over press just locked him up.

I told him we could have used one of my Rock Chuckers but no, he wanted to use the big giant press.

F. Guffey

[jimmykan]

In Mogolian units of measure 6-7 yak yaks has been shown to give the most accuracy.
On the shoulder bump if the brass has more than 11-12 yak yaks you anneal it first and bump until you get a firm closing on the bolt.
Then there was the time we all used basic brass and formed our own shoulders anywhere we wanted them. Of course there are only 2 reloaders in the world that can perform this and I am sworn to secrecy.
A clue is we used a hob.

Kinda like the factory torque specs are given in foot-pounds or Newton-meters, but real auto mechanics measure torque in "ugga duggas"

[ar15barrels]

I have read here many many times that it is impossible to bump a shoulder with a full length die.

You are only reading that when you read your own posts because nobody else is saying that.

[TomReloaded]

No one is making *any* of the claims he's trying to debate.

[bigbossman]

No one is making *any* of the claims he's trying to debate.

Arguing with shadows of his own construction.

[LynnJr]

I have read here many many times that it is impossible to bump a shoulder with a full length die.

Very good, I said it is impossible to bump a shoulder BACK, I had nothing to do with it, it is a function of the die, the die will not allow you to move/bump a shoulder back. You rookies have never learned to read the press instructions, the press instructions that come with a non-cam over press says the non-came over press is not a bump press.

Cam-over press: The cam-over press instructions say the cam-over press is a bump press. When running the cam-over press through its cycle the press bumps twice. Once when the ram changes directions at the top and again when the ram changes directions at the bottom.

I do not have an infatuation with bump, I do not have a die that was designed to bump. I do not enjoy saying this but there is a big chance I am the only reloader on this forum that understands adjusting a die in a cam over press is different than when adjusting a die in a non cam over press.

I was asked to help a man that had a big cam-over press locked up, he used a pipe to tighten his die, he was an angry man. I walked in and checked the press and then asked him if he knew how much cam over the press had and he did know what a cam over press looked like. I then explained to him we had to remove the die before we could move the handle/ram linkage.

I understand it means nothing to you bumpers, but his press had .035" cam- over. He was supposed to be forming 8mmx378 Winchester cases for a wildcat he was building. He was supposed to wait for me before he started. Again, I know it means nothing to you bumpers but the .035" cam over crushed the case and there were 480 cases to be formed and they were in sets of 20, The bump in the cam over press just locked him up.

I told him we could have used one of my Rock Chuckers but no, he wanted to use the big giant press.

F. Guffey

How does one tighten a die with a pipe?
My dies are screwed down with 2 to 3 fingers and i have no reason to use a pipe.
Maybe you cross threaded your dies and used a pipe wrench?
We are getting a better grasp of all your reloading issues when your screwing dies into a press with a pipe wrench.