Neck sizing

[RestrictedColt]

Someday, you should explain how to do this instead of just bragging that you can do it.
We call that teaching.
Other people might also find that knowledge that you possess to be useful knowledge.

That'll never happen. He'll just keep bragging without ever showing that what he's bragging about is actually true, because he can't, because it isn't. Just like his datum claims. It's much like engaging an ignorant anti-gunner and you start talking facts and asking the real questions, they'll ignore them and keep to their mantra.

There was a somewhat similar nut-job on a motorcycle forum I'm on but that forum doesn't have any nanny rules so the collective expressed their unedited feelings then started ignoring him and he finally got the clue & left.

I almost think Guff should be banned because of his derailments and the confusion he's caused, especially to new reloaders seeking advice, but banning goes against my principles. Maybe if everyone ignored him he'd just go away, unfortunately we get new people every day so he'll always have an audience to his superiority. I was initially sucked in by his supposed knowledge, I knew I was a newbie and assumed he had special knowledge. Luckily I saw through his BS before becoming completely derailed so I put him on "ignore", he's the only member I've done that with. For some reason I can suddenly see his posts again so I need to check my settings and see what the heck happened.

Edit: just realized I was seeing his posts because he was quoted, the system's working just fine.

[longrange1]

I went to my 'go to gun parts store' looking for gun parts; while waiting a customer was wanting the length of his chamber checked from the shoulder to the bolt face. The owner/smith informed the customer he could not check the head space on the very fine and exotic rifle because he did not have a go-gage for the chamber. the would be customer was disappointed but the answer was no.

I did not get involved; when the customer left I told the owner/smith I could check the head space three different ways without a head space gage. No one in the building said 'BS', The owner showed a lot of class when he asked, "HOW?" !

Allow me to check 'things' you have in your displays, cabinets and hanging one the walls. In less than one minute I had what I needed. When I finished the owner/smith said, "Well I'LL be Dammed". I did mention I have grinders that make piolets, grind angles and grind to length, I suggested others believe head space gages are made on mars.

And we have a common friend, he has no fewer than 20 30/06 head space gages, he complained to me he did not have a head space that that would measure the actual length of the chamber from the shoulder to the bolt face. I informed him I measure the actual length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face without a head space gage, Head space gages do not lock me up.

F. Guffey

i call bull*****!!

[LynnJr]

Guffster isn't a nutjob he just doesn't communicate in English so well.

He speaks in datum/tension/feeler gage the langauge of the confused some would say.

If he would actually post a complete thought it would be helpful but in the years I've been reading his posts that only happened once when we found out he was pushing feeler gages under his brass to bump the shoulder more.
I forget the term but it's a form of rigging!!!!!!
What's important here is Datums/tensions/feeler gages and shoulder bumps don't curb me. Neck sizing don't curb me.
Guffey don't curb me but Franky please curb your dog. Headspace don't curb me but I do curb my tires and my dog.
I think it's a dog we call him Curly? He was licking the salt off the wife's car. That Dog Curbs me!!! But Datums don't!!!
Where is the interpreter???

[Ramsh00ter]

I watched this video again, what a Moron! It's amazing to me how people can make claims when they are clueless.

I don't have a problem with stating he prefers FL and why. But when claims you will damage your gun by neck sizing, put a him in the idiot division!.

[bsumoba]

This guy is as bad as Fguffy, roughly speaking.

I use the lee collet die and it works fine for me.

So, you're saying you only use a collet die?

I don't recall the adjustments, but if you're doing 'by the book' then you probably need a reduced diameter mandrel. I'm pretty sure they sell them, or you could stick yours in a drill and use sandpaper to thin it down about .001" and probably be good.

I guess roughly speaking, this would work. But, most would use a neck turning tool to do this rather than sandpapering down necks.

It's like sticking a case in a drill and annealing brass over a torch. I guess it can get the job done, but it is far from consistent.

I watched this video again, what a Moron! It's amazing to me how people can make claims when they are clueless.

I don't have a problem with stating he prefers FL and why. But when claims you will damage your gun by neck sizing, put a him in the idiot division!.

Yes, you can damage your gun by neck sizing only. I've seen it too many times at the range. You will at some point, stick a case and with factory guns, you could snap a bolt handle or damage the bolt in general trying to get the case out. The last time I saw this, was maybe 4 months ago. The guy travels a few hours to shoot with us at Sac Valley and brings a factory gun with neck sized cases. He sticks one and not even a cleaning rod with a rubber mallet tapping on it, while a gun taps on the bolt handle, would get it out.

There is zero advantage to neck sizing when it comes to accuracy and consistency. I cannot think of a single competitive PRS shooter (other than the ones that strictly use factory ammo due to their sponsorships) or competitive F-Class shooter who neck sizes. Not even the competitive short range BR shooters neck size anymore. They all full length size.

Clueless?? Well, I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. But, I know him personally as I shoot with him in National F-Class matches often and he would probably run circles around you in any shooting discipline.

[JagerDog]

I guess roughly speaking, this would work. But, most would use a neck turning tool to do this rather than sandpapering down necks.

It's like sticking a case in a drill and annealing brass over a torch. I guess it can get the job done, but it is far from consistent.
.

That's not how a collet die works. Neck OD/thickness is irrelevant.

[pacrat]

Quote:
Originally Posted by RestrictedColt View Post
I don't recall the adjustments, but if you're doing 'by the book' then you probably need a reduced diameter mandrel. I'm pretty sure they sell them, or you could stick yours in a drill and use sandpaper to thin it down about .001" and probably be good.

I guess roughly speaking, this would work. But, most would use a neck turning tool to do this rather than sandpapering down necks.

Either faulty reading comprehension. Or lack of understanding the mechanics of a "collet die", compared to a "bushing die".

RC is referring to dressing down the "mandrel" of the collet die. Not "sandpapering" case necks.

Collet die sizes necks onto a mandrel. Case neck thickness is not a factor to finished neck ID. That is controlled solely by the mandrel diameter.

Unlike "bushing" neck sizers. Where neck thickness is a contributing factor to finished ID of sized neck.

BTW, Lee does, or at least did. Sell optional undersize mandrels for just this contingency.

[bsumoba]

Either faulty reading comprehension. Or lack of understanding the mechanics of a "collet die", compared to a "bushing die".

Yes, I misread the post...

One thing that the collet does not do, since it does not take into account the neck OD, is provide you with a consistent neck clearance in your chamber. I think this is secondary to the neck ID as I believe that is more important than the neck OD. That is why all the ammo used in my competitive guns, are sized with a custom die that has a neck OD and expander that matches perfectly the way I want it for my chamber (which I own the reamer for). I turn my brass to the same thickness and achieve minimum, 0.004-0.005" neck clearance and consistent 0.0015" neck tension. My expander ball minimally expands my neck, reducing work hardening and stretching of the neck. This took me 3 custom dies to get right, 1 of which was the fault of the die maker.

Most factory guns have so much slop in their chambers anyways that it probably would not matter. If people are using factory guns and barrels, chances are they are not looking for the most accuracy, trying to be competitive or at least, have not shot a custom gun with tuned ammo, to be convinced that there is a difference between a factory gun and a custom one. Yes, you can get a good factory rifle and it might shoot lights out, but it is rare. When the barrel wears out, your whole reloading setup potentially changes since you have no control over how it was chambered and with that reamer.

[divingin]

I make datums I use datums and I know datums. Datums don't kick me to the curb.
Then there was the time I went to the store and the customer wanted to buy datums. The guy behind the counter didn't have any datums handy but I bit my lip.
Yes I just happened to have my pockets full of datums as datums don't curb me.

You forgot about making datums.

[Ramsh00ter]

Yes, you can damage your gun by neck sizing only. I've seen it too many times at the range. You will at some point, stick a case and with factory guns, you could snap a bolt handle or damage the bolt in general trying to get the case out. The last time I saw this, was maybe 4 months ago. The guy travels a few hours to shoot with us at Sac Valley and brings a factory gun with neck sized cases. He sticks one and not even a cleaning rod with a rubber mallet tapping on it, while a gun taps on the bolt handle, would get it out.

There is zero advantage to neck sizing when it comes to accuracy and consistency. I cannot think of a single competitive PRS shooter (other than the ones that strictly use factory ammo due to their sponsorships) or competitive F-Class shooter who neck sizes. Not even the competitive short range BR shooters neck size anymore. They all full length size.

Clueless?? Well, I guess you are entitled to your own opinion. But, I know him personally as I shoot with him in National F-Class matches often and he would probably run circles around you in any shooting discipline.

Bull.....

If you stick a case, it is not from neck sizing! Neck sizing is no different from FL sizing, if it set up wrong, problems arise. I have been neck sizing for 40+ years.

Just more proof you are making claims without foundation. Not sure if you shoot Short range BR or if you have attended any matches, but making a statement that we only FL size is FALSE!
I don't know the ratio, but I would guess it is prob 50/50 mix threaded die to Arbor Die. Most of the guys (like myself) use custom dies made to their chamber or matched to it. I have three different Harrels theaded dies, NONE OF THESE DIES FL SIZE. If they did, I would need lube. I dry size.

You may not think there are any advantages to Neck Sizing, that is your opinion. I personally think there are more than one advantage, but that is my opinion.

The difference between us is, the two of you are making a absolute statements with saying it is your opinion without any foundation to it. I would love to see the proof to the claims he is making.

As far as running circles around me, maybe in his game, I'm not an F Class shooter. But not in mine! And I didn't say he can't shoot, just he is making statements that are simply false and is misleading novice re-loaders! And what does this discussion have to do with shooting ability, "My friend can out shoot you, so he knows more and is an expert!" Kind of childish.

If he wants to come play my game, will be happy to put a little money on it. Or at least a cup of coffee or soda. You guys come to the Cactus Classic and show me how you are going to shot in short range BR with FL sizes cases.

Heck, I would even put a cup of coffee on it in an F Class shoot with my Dasher.

[LynnJr]

RamShooter
Before you started posting here the PRS shooters told me they reloaded more accurate ammo than Benchrest shooters did.
The F-Class shooters posting said they never had a handle come off or galled a locking lug ever.
It's hard to talk accuracy with shooters who have never experienced accuracy before.

Now we are hearing ALL Benchrest shooters are full length resizing. I don't know where all this craziness comes from but wait until they start talking about headspace and seating into the lands.
Did you know seating into the lands blows up millions of guns?
F Guffey will now post you can't bump a shoulder back.
Sit back and read some of this stuff it will really get you wondering.

In Erik's defense he is talking about guys who shoot max loads and don't know how to reload. If you don't know what your doing a full length die will act as a crutch to help you limp around.
Nice group by the way. Most here have guns that shoot in the zeroes and if you don't believe me just keep reading and they will post it.

[Ramsh00ter]

RamShooter

In Erik's defense he is talking about guys who shoot max loads and don't know how to reload. If you don't know what your doing a full length die will act as a crutch to help you limp around.

That is exactly what I am trying to get across.

A stuck case, broken bolt handle, galled lugs are not caused by NECK SIZING.

Its improperly loaded ammo.

[LynnJr]

Exactly but try posting that here. These guys will hear a shooter like Erik say something and without checking it out for themselves they quote it as gospel.
I used to get in trouble from Don Nielson for letting people know how to do things. He wanted to get into the Benchrest hall of fame and never made after 30 years so he started his own hall of fame. You ask him a question and he will give you a lie.
Jerry Tierney would politely tell you he would rather not answer you.

If you start a thread about seating into the lands you will hear more noise than a jet taking off. And of course nobody does that either just ask a F-Class shooter.

[Ramsh00ter]

If you start a thread about seating into the lands you will hear more noise than a jet taking off.

I am starting to realize that here.

[pacrat]

bsumoba said,

Yes, I misread the post...

One thing that the collet does not do, since it does not take into account the neck OD, is provide you with a consistent neck clearance in your chamber. I think this is secondary to the neck ID as I believe that is more important than the neck OD.

Misreading is what I suspected, considering your reloading experience. And I totally concur with the remainder of above quote. That is why as a hunter who wants to eek every bit of accuracy possible out of my non-custom equipment. I neck turn my bottleneck rifle/pistol cases. And NECK SIZE those same cases. After 60 yrs of hunting and 50 yrs of reloading, that's what works best for me, with my own subjective accuracy parameters.

One thing that is most times overlooked in these reloading threads.
Which often digress into, my gun is bigger than yours,--my buddy can out shoot your buddy,--I shoot competition so know best, pissing contests. Is that the OP and his original problem, concern, or question, gets drowned in the piss puddle which has more than a few turds floating in it.

ISYN, a few years ago here on CG Reloading Forum. A noob with a milsurp Mauser 98, who had saved a hundred 8x57 factory cases fired in his beat up, hundred yr old, open sighted $150 milsurp with thousands of dirty corrosive rounds fired through its likely shot out bore. Came here asking some basic "how to get started reloading" questions. One of these CG inhouse pissing contest eggspurts, insisted he should buy Redding Custom Die Set, for $250. Claiming if he was going to reload at all, he should do it like a benchy.

OP asked about a specific issue with loose necks with HIS OWN specific die type.


JM2c