Shellholders and Custom Shellholders

[LynnJr]

There was another thread here were shellholders were mentioned and Custom shellholders were misrepresented that is now closed.
A standard shellholder measures 0.125 inches and when your dies are properly adjusted for a bolt action rifle will give you 0.001 to 0.002 clearance.

The headspace on a 30-06 is allowed to vary by up to 0.010 so your dies must have a range of adjustability in order to achieve your goal of 1 to 2 thousandths of clearance.

If you screw your dies down per industry standards your loaded rounds can have the 0.010 added to any other tolerance stacking from the die the shellholders and the press.
In our example the shellholder was not 0.125 as it should be but was a measured 0.1265 or too long by the 0.0015 which is the ideal clearance we want for a Precision Rifle.

When you have a shellholders that is out of tolerance you loose adjustability or you gain adjustability and this can be very confusing for those that adjust there dies to make firm contact with the shellholder and it did just that.

The Redding Custom shellholders come 5 to a set and they are incrementally sized in 0.002 increments.

Redding produced these shellholders for reloaders not wanting 0.010 slop plus any tolerance stacking slop added to there reloads from the shellholder die or press.

What some here have trouble understanding is these shellholders only come in + increments or +0.002 +0.004 +0.006 +0.008 and +0.010

Nobody that I am aware of makes minus increment shellholders -.002 -0.004 etc etc etc ifshellholders so for those of us who are lucky enough to get a tight end of tolerance factory chamber or a rebarreled rifle set to minimum headspace it is common practice to remove a small amount of metal from the top of a shellholder to adjust for minor tolerance stacking issues. If you and mill file cut hacksaw torch or grind to much material off of a shellholder it will fail to pull a case from your die and the chances for a failure go up dramatically for cases requiring extra effort due to improper lubrication.

A huge problem is many reloaders think you need to make firm contact with the shellholder and the dies and you don't. You do want the press to cam over but the reason for that is consistency.
The only thing that happens by making firm contact with the die and shellholder is you prematurely wear out the pivot in your press.

[Metal God]

A huge problem is many reloaders think you need to make firm contact with the shellholder and the dies and you don't. You do want the press to cam over but the reason for that is consistency.
The only thing that happens by making firm contact with the die and shellholder is you prematurely wear out the pivot in your press.

I disagree . If your die and shell holder does not make continual contact through cam over ( usually means hard contact ) There would be NO reason to use competition shell holders . They are specifically design to make hard contact . Now I can see how hard contact can be subjective . You don't want to have to use a lot of force on cam over due to hard contact . Just enough to ensure that the shell holder is still in contact with the die at the top of the ram stroke .

I can see excessive pressures causing long term issue with the press . How ever the main and only reason you want hard contact through cam over is consistency . All presses have some amount of deflection . Meaning when sizing large cases or cases that are more work hardened then others . Those cases resist sizing more and cause the press/linkage to flex . This deflection can cause inconsistencies from case to case . By having the shell holder and die make hard contact through cam over you remove ALL press deflection resulting in a much more consistently sized case . That is why they make the shell holders in the + sized increments . Allowing you to remove all press deflection because of making hard contact while at the same time consistently being able to size your cases longer .

Do this simple test to check your presses amount of deflection . Raise the ram up and screw your die down till it makes contact with the shell holder , Not hard but be sure they are touching . Lock in place then size a case and leave the ram fully up with the case still in the die . Now look at where the shell holder and die should be making contact . It's likely there is now a gap between the shell holder and the die . That is the amount of press deflection you have and a major cause of inconsistent shoulder bump .

The reason you don't see nor need shell holders in - increments is a standard shell holder when making hard contact will/should size the case below minimum . When using a standard shell holder . I can size a 308 case .003 to .004 smaller/shorter then the 308 go gage . If you need a case sized down that much , to the point that a go gage will not chamber in your rifle . Your chamber in not simply a tight chamber . It's an out of spec chamber . If you need to size a case .006 , .008 shorter then a go gage . The issue in not needing new shell holders It's needing a new gunsmith .

[LynnJr]

The competition shellholders are a band aid for inexperience reloaders who set all there dies to a firm contact and are getting short case life due to separations in the web area.
It allows them to adjust in 0.002 increments and still run the shellholder into the die.
I don't think a new gunsmith is needed as I only use the best.

[JMP]

I don't need to make contact with the shellholder. That's why I have a lock ring on my dies. If you jam your die into the shellholder, sometimes you will oversize the case. Redding neck sizing dies and custom dies allow for movement with micrometers and shims to fit your case correctly.

Lynn, your statement is trivial. On non adjustable dies and shelholders, if everyone fit based on shellholder to die mouth, they'd get identical dimensions. This is obviously a flawed practice because, optimally, you fit your brass to your chamber. All chambers are different and you cannot fit your chamber to your brass each time you reload. This should be obvious, and anyone that cares about accuracy fits the case to the chamber, not vice versa.

[LynnJr]

JMP
I think most here ram the shellholder into the full length die and call it good.

They get reloaded ammo.

For those wanting extended case longevity and accuracy the brass should be fit to your rifles chamber as you do.

Some people take advantage of what reloading has to offer and some just reload.

Where we see the most confusion is in the terminology. We are limited on the picture space here so when we ask a question such as can you measure from the casehead to the shoulder using a 40 caliber pistol case we get a diameter instead. If we could post a picture it would not only help the confused it would also help anyone viewing the thread.

[Metal God]

I stand by my above post 100%

I bump my shoulders back .002 for bolt guns and .003 for semi autos . Before I started using the Redding Comp shell holders I would get a spread of shoulder bump fro .000 to .004 or .005 . Not every time but there was that spread from time to time . Now that I use Comp shell holders and the shell holder and die make contact through cam over my maximum spread shrunk to .0015 . I'm convinced that has to do with the fact I no longer have any press flex/deflection because that is the only thing different in the whole process .

There was a point before I started using the comp shell holders that I had to use feeler gages between the shell holder and case head to bump the shoulders just right .


This allowed me to be able to give the case that little extra bump if the case was particularly harder to size . I'd have the die set to size 90% of the case perfect but there was still that 10% that were either more work hardened and or what ever was causing them to create more press flex or case spring back . For those 10% I would slide a custom cut feeler gage under the case lifting it up . When I then ran it through the die again it would set the shoulder back the extra amount of the feeler gage thickness . Needless to say that took quite a bit of time . I had to use a comparator on every case after sizing . The ones that were not bumped back the perfect .002 . I set aside and ran them through again using the proper sized feeler gage . It works great if you're looking to size every case to the exact same size . It"s just much more work then needed . Comp shell holders remove all that guess work . When used properly It does not mater what brand brass or how many times they've been fired . All brass comes out sized the same to with in .0015 from one another .

I don't think a new gunsmith is needed as I only use the best.

I'm not sure I understand that point . Are you saying you are receiving and or have rifles that will not chamber a GO gage for the particular round they were cut for ? Not only that but those same chambers need brass sized .006+ shorter then the GO gage in order for your rounds to fit ? I would not even see the reasoning or benefit of having a chamber cut so far out of spec .

Like said above . You size your cases to the chamber . So if you want a tight chamber you cut it so a GO gage barely fits when the bolt is fully closed . How does one install a barrel to have a short out of spec chamber ? Thread the barrel on close . Close the bolt with a GO gage in the chamber .Thread the rest of the way to the GO gage . Then remove GO gage and give the barrel an extra 1/4 turn in . Why would you do that ?

[J-cat]

The competition shellholders are a band aid for inexperience reloaders who set all there dies to a firm contact and are getting short case life due to separations in the web area.
It allows them to adjust in 0.002 increments and still run the shellholder into the die.
I don't think a new gunsmith is needed as I only use the best.

I disagree.

They are not a bandaid.

They are designed to remove linkage slop and press springing from the headspace equation.

They make life easier.

[Metal God]

This is a GO gage in my comparator



This is a case sized using a standard shell holder with the shell holder and die making hard contact through cam over . As you can see the sized case is .004 shorter then the GO gage . So ANY chamber that is to spec , A standard shell holder is all you should ever need as far as tight chambers go



Now for press deflection .

Do this simple test to check your presses amount of deflection . Raise the ram up and screw your die down till it makes contact with the shell holder , Not hard but be sure they are touching . Lock in place then size a case and leave the ram fully up with the case still in the die . Now look at where the shell holder and die should be making contact . It's likely there is now a gap between the shell holder and the die . That is the amount of press deflection you have and a major cause of inconsistent shoulder bump .

Die screwed down to make contact with the shell holder . As you can see NO space between the die and shell holder


After sizing case and leaving it in the die . As you can clearly see there is now a space/gap between the shell holder and die . That is press/linkage - deflection/flex



Now that's as clear as I can make my points . If anyone still does not understand . Then you likely will not ever get it .

[eric n]

Metal god,
Do you anneal?
Something isn't right there. Having up to .005 discrepancy is not right unless the case isn't fully formed or work hardened. I never see more then .002 difference in fully formed cases and most times its less then .001.
Imo grinding a shellholder is no different then using a comp shellholder. You are making your brass fit. There is nothing wrong with being able to control negative head space.
I watched the smith chamber a go/ no go and still had to grind shell holder due to tolerance stacking between shell holder and die fit.... it isn't a big deal

[Metal God]

I do anneal but for the purpose of these test I used cases that were fired at least twice to show a work hardened case has more resistance in the die . I should add that although Hornady does make a good press ( I'm using a Hornady single stage in the above test ) The Hornady has more deflection then a Rockchucker . I don't have comparisons of the two but I've done these test for all calibers I load and the larger/harder the case is to size . The more press deflection my Hornady lock-n-load has . That could be are differences in deflection and spring back .

I have detailed annealing test as well if yal want to go there . I debunk a lot of internet theory's out there .

Imo grinding a shellholder is no different then using a comp shellholder. You are making your brass fit. There is nothing wrong with being able to control negative head space.

I guess I don't disagree with that . My point was simply that you really should never have to grind down the shell holder . I have heard of guys doing it though .

I watched the smith chamber a go/ no go and still had to grind shell holder due to tolerance stacking between shell holder and die fit.... it isn't a big deal

If you were to thread the barrel on tight to a GO gage . That would almost certainly cause a negative head space by about .002 to .003 . As long as you know what you have and never want to shoot factory ammo from that rifle . The chamber can be anything you want it to be .

The competition shellholders are a band aid for inexperience reloaders who set all there dies to a firm contact

I disagree as well . It's not a band aid , It's the solution to the problem

[pacrat]

Cats and headspace have something in common. There are multiple ways to skin one, and adjust the other. Big cats offer more resistance to skinning. Just as big cases are a bit more difficult to consistantly size for desirable headspace.

There is no one size fits all for cat skinning, or case sizing.

If one considers all the mechanical variables of case sizing, such as, case metallurgy, work hardening, press flex, SH variations, die variations, hard SH contact v no contact.

Then addresses these variables with any of the plethora of available tooling chosen which include but are not limited to, incremented SHs, solid SHs, incrementally adjustable dies, solid dies, feeler gages, etc.

It becomes obvious that there is no single procedural "one way" that is correct, proper, right, or suitable, to size a case to attain acceptable headspace clearance. Because realistically, even what is acceptable headspace clearance is a subjective concept.

For the vast majority of "reloaders" that just want ammo comparable to SAAMI spec factory stuff at a cheaper price. So they can have fun killing tin cans on a weekend. Their acceptable standard is far below a "handloading" hobbyist's who strives to wring the most accuracy he can out of his usually off the shelf equipment and rifle. Which is incrementally below the standards of a benchrest competitor.

Whether a loader trims his SH, or his Die, uses incremented SHs, or uses feelers gages, or addresses the issue from above with an adjustable die all that really matters is that they reach their "personal" goal of "acceptable" headspace. How they reach that goal is never a fixed procedure. It is a personal choice, based on their own personal experience.

JM2c

[LynnJr]

MetalGod
Like Eric said if your brass has 0.005 variation something is major wrong with your set up. I load 14 Flea to 50BMG and never see that much inconsistency. I throw out brass that bad.

The deflection your talking about is not what I am talking about. If you have space between the shellholder and die your simply not in firm contact. Running a die down so it isn't preloaded means nothing.
On the chambers mine are properly cut to minimum headspace.


J-Cat
I have never had the need for a + shellholder and I own two sets that were prizes at matches. Maybe someday I will find a chamber that long but so far all my chambers are cut to minimum spec and the only shellholder mods I ever see all need - shellholders.

[ar15barrels]

A huge problem is many reloaders think you need to make firm contact with the shellholder and the dies and you don't. You do want the press to cam over but the reason for that is consistency.
The only thing that happens by making firm contact with the die and shellholder is you prematurely wear out the pivot in your press.

If the die is stopping against the shellholder (or shim), then you are sizing the brass more consistently when if the die is stopping against the brass and you are leaving air space between the die and the shellholder.
When you have air space, you are depending on the consistency of the brass hadrness and the consistency of your lube distribution to give you a consistent case shoulder length.
If you setup the press/dies/shellholder in such a way that you are stopping only against the shellholder/die, you will have to spring the press, you are better controlling the consistency of shoulder length.
This WILL require springing the press a little bit.

People don't believe that the press is being sprung by the brass alone.
This is easy to observe though if you were to only adjust the die down tight against the shellholder WITHOUT a case and then size a case and check the gap between the shellholder and the die while the case is being sized.
The thickness of the gap is the press being stretched BY THE BRASS.

[ar15barrels]

Nobody that I am aware of makes minus increment shellholders -.002 -0.004 etc etc etc ifshellholders
so for those of us who are lucky enough to get a tight end of tolerance factory chamber or a rebarreled rifle set to minimum headspace

I surface grind shellholders or dies when needed, but it is extremely rare to need to do that.

[Redemption]

Gosh all of this looks eerily familiar...Where could I have seen all of this before?

I did a little internal debate with myself earlier about weather or not to respond to this, since it smells so much like bait, but since this post is essentially about my thread I suppose I aught to.

Since you are so quick to lean on the term industry standards for die adjustment I felt it may be prudent to put you in touch with the industry standard. I know you have before stated that you "are here to teach not to learn" but I really think if you take the time to watch the video from the manufacturer who builds to the industry standard and put it up against the video that was posted before and compare it with what everyone keeps trying to tell you, you will figure out where you are wrong.


Industry standard taken directly from the Lee website, the maker of both the press and die in question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al2m72JyypA

In post #1 you say:

"A huge problem is many reloaders think you need to make firm contact with the shellholder and the dies and you don't."

However in the video posted above Lee says:

"At the top of the stroke, when sizing a case. No daylight should be seen between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die"

If you reference that with how I adjusted my die and ran my brass it is exactly the same process. Now if I were take ones word over the other, would I trust the guy who has been pretty rude to me, who claims to know a lot about shooting and reloading on an ambiguous forum or would I take the word of the people putting out the how to who actually are the people who made my press and my dies? hmmmm tough call...