Shellholders and Custom Shellholders

[Metal God]

That is my understanding. Do you agree with me there or am I missing anything?

If you have no way to measure your own fire formed brass . Then yes that would work . How ever you can make a home made comparator with a 3/8" spacer https://www.google.com/search?q=3/8+...yYANTg&dpr=0.9. Somebody said a empty 40cal case would work and sure enough it does . Not sure why but never thought of that . Just make sure all is square and lined up . It can get a little wobbly and give false measurements .


Measure your cases that are fire formed to your chamber this way . You will then have a measurement to compare your sized cases to ( A comparator ) Adjust your die in or out until you are sizing the cases .002 shorter then your fire formed cases .

[ar15barrels]

In my instance it should only be necessary for me to do this the first time on this brass since it was likely semiauto fired previously and is running a bit long in the shoulder. But I can certainly see how reforming the shoulder every time on every firing would cause that. After the brass is fireformed it should only be necessary to size the neck as the shoulder will be fireformed to my chamber.

That is my understanding. Do you agree with me there or am I missing anything?

Cases will grow too long after multiple firings WITHOUT full length sizing.

Ok, all of that makes sense. It is only obvious that the press will stretch, all metals have stretch and sheer ratings.

"SOMETIMES, they get more press frame stretch than they can tolerate and the ammo will not fit their guns."

I suppose the way my mind works, my initial presumption would be that what you mean by the ammunition not fitting their guns is that it will cause the shoulder to run over length, is that correct?

Yes.

Now there are a lot of types of case gauges so I guess my next question is going to be somewhat subjective. The type I seem most people using is the gnurled aluminum cylinder that you just plunk the brass into that shows you a high and low groove. Typically speaking are these machined to the minimum side or the maximum side of the shoulder tolerance spectrum? (the high spot and the low groove is the high and low end of the tolerance correct?)

Those gauges are more useful than nothing, but the min and max mean almost nothing compared to simply measuring the shoulder length of cases fired in YOUR gun.
I have measured some of those gauges with real measuring tools and found them to be far too inconsistent for my use.
Some of those gauges that I measured would have you sizing cases 0.008" shorter than needed for most guns.

[ar15barrels]

Somebody said a empty 40cal case would work and sure enough it does . Not sure why but never thought of that .

Fired cases measured in the method pictured here will not give an accurate measurement as the calipers are bearing on the fired primer and the fired primer will usually be proud of the case, effecting the headspace length measurement by the gun's headspace clearance.

You CAN use that method if you deprime the case without sizing it though.

[Metal God]

Randall : Good call thank you . I did/do de-prime and should have said that . I can go one step further even . The primer pockets that get crimped using the 4 individual points tend to leave burrs sticking up and can give false readings as well

[J-cat]

I use a sized/deprimed .40 case. I spin the two cases inbetween the caliper jaws until I get a solid fit. No it's not very precise for scientific measuring but works well enough for setting up dies.

[LynnJr]

Here is another tidbit:

To get .002" of shoulder bump on a case previously having been fired in a HK91 I have to use a +.002" competition shell holder along with a Redding die. The Forster won't size it enough because the chamber is so large the die cannot overcome the springback.

That is where people run into problems with range brass. Sometimes this brass is fired in oversized chambers and some dies just don't have the ability to properly size this brass. It's the extra springback.

J-Cat
And that is why you tweak a $3 shellholder before you mess up a die.

[Redemption]

Those gauges are more useful than nothing, but the min and max mean almost nothing compared to simply measuring the shoulder length of cases fired in YOUR gun.
I have measured some of those gauges with real measuring tools and found them to be far too inconsistent for my use.
Some of those gauges that I measured would have you sizing cases 0.008" shorter than needed for most guns.

Yeah I would tend to agree. Chambers also run a little + or - in some cases dies can run a little plus or minus, SH can sometimes run + or - all with varying degrees of consistency results, if you end up with the wrong combination of inconsistency then you have a bad recipe.

[FLIGHT762]

Does everyone feel better now?

[pacrat]

Metal God said

If you have no way to measure your own fire formed brass . Then yes that would work . How ever you can make a home made comparator with a 3/8" spacer https://www.google.com/search?q=3/8+...yYANTg&dpr=0.9. Somebody said a empty 40cal case would work and sure enough it does . Not sure why but never thought of that . Just make sure all is square and lined up . It can get a little wobbly and give false measurements .

The spacers you linked work a bit better than either 9mm or .40 cases for 06. Because the datum for an 06 case is .375" so the spacer is closer to correct dia to hit the 06 datum. Plus the short ones shown in the link are less "wobbly" than empty cases.

The .40 case works better for .308 than 06 because the .308 datum is .400". And as stated measurements are "comparative" not absolute. But since it is a comparative measurement it is not critical to hit the datum exactly. But you must keep the same case or spacer to use everytime.

[Bumslie]

[emoji14]opcorn:

[JMP]

[emoji14]opcorn:

Bumslie, why do you say that? What the heck does popcorn have to do with this thread? It seems like a perfectly reasonable discussion going on, which is a lot better than a "should I get a Dillon 650 or Hornady AP?"


Anyhow, this is not exactly on topic, but it is related. For semiautomatic rifles, I totally get this range brass stuff. But, on bolt actions, why are folks not simply buying brass in uniform sets or using one-fired brass of the same headstamp. For rifle brass, the only stuff I would pick up is the FC stamped brass in 308 with the blue mark around the primer. I use FC for 308 since it is abundant and fairly consistent for cheap brass. It is not good brass, but it works in 308. That blue mark will identify that it has been fired only once from factory new.

Other than that, I'd strongly encourage folks to just buy a set of brass. You'll almost always use Lapua if they make a case for your cartridge.

Right here, $1/piece. It'll save you money in the long run and you will get better results.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/110311/lapua-reloading-brass-30-06-springfield-box-of-100

Then, for 308 stuff, Lapua has the advantage of offering the cases in small primers, which are usually a benefit for precision. Right here, $0.90 for small primer 308. The only thing I don't like about Lapua in 308 is that it tends to be thicker and has less case capacity. 308 generally needs a fill that is just above 100% to get it moving with enough velocity.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/591304/lapua-reloading-brass-308-winchester-palma-small-primer-pocket-box-of-100

Don't be cheap and get all sorts of crimps and non-uniform brass. Just spend a couple extra bucks now and you will save yourself a lot later.

For me, my brass dies when the primer pocket dies. If you buy good brass, it's uniform and give you better results and you will SAVE MONEY.

Even cheap bullets are going to cost you $0.30/each. Why not pay a buck for something you can use over and over with better results. For pistol, or really common cheap brass, it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense to pick up pieces of poop from the ground if you are trying to run precision through a bolt.

Go to the range and try to pick up as much 6mm, 6.5mm, or 8.6mm. You won't find much of it around as those folks are buying uniform sets and keeping them.

Out of practicality, for folks that go into so much detail about exact shell holder dimensions, It makes zero sense to me to pick up feces off the ground at ranges.

This will alleviate some of the burden since you can get your dies set when you have a piece of brass you like along with a bullet. Sorry for the sidebar, but it seems worth mentioning. That crap you can pick up on the floor of the range turns this conversation largely moot.

Sounds like j-cat picks up HK'd brass for the challenge of reloading it. That's fine, but for beginers, just buy a set.

There are 3 main factors in shooting accurately:
1. Your rig (mostly the barrel)
2. Your ability
3. Your ammo

It's important to have at least two out of the three nailed so you can tinker with the 3rd. Otherwise, it is tough to isolate issues when you have two or more vaiables acting up.

[Redemption]

Bumslie, why do you say that? What the heck does popcorn have to do with this thread? It seems like a perfectly reasonable discussion going on, which is a lot better than a "should I get a Dillon 650 or Hornady AP?"


Anyhow, this is not exactly on topic, but it is related. For semiautomatic rifles, I totally get this range brass stuff. But, on bolt actions, why are folks not simply buying brass in uniform sets or using one-fired brass of the same headstamp. For rifle brass, the only stuff I would pick up is the FC stamped brass in 308 with the blue mark around the primer. I use FC for 308 since it is abundant and fairly consistent for cheap brass. It is not good brass, but it works in 308. That blue mark will identify that it has been fired only once from factory new.

Other than that, I'd strongly encourage folks to just buy a set of brass. You'll almost always use Lapua if they make a case for your cartridge.

Right here, $1/piece. It'll save you money in the long run and you will get better results.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/110311/lapua-reloading-brass-30-06-springfield-box-of-100

Then, for 308 stuff, Lapua has the advantage of offering the cases in small primers, which are usually a benefit for precision. Right here, $0.90 for small primer 308. The only thing I don't like about Lapua in 308 is that it tends to be thicker and has less case capacity. 308 generally needs a fill that is just above 100% to get it moving with enough velocity.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/591304/lapua-reloading-brass-308-winchester-palma-small-primer-pocket-box-of-100

Don't be cheap and get all sorts of crimps and non-uniform brass. Just spend a couple extra bucks now and you will save yourself a lot later.

For me, my brass dies when the primer pocket dies. If you buy good brass, it's uniform and give you better results and you will SAVE MONEY.

Even cheap bullets are going to cost you $0.30/each. Why not pay a buck for something you can use over and over with better results. For pistol, or really common cheap brass, it makes sense, but it doesn't make sense to pick up pieces of poop from the ground if you are trying to run precision through a bolt.

Go to the range and try to pick up as much 6mm, 6.5mm, or 8.6mm. You won't find much of it around as those folks are buying uniform sets and keeping them.

Out of practicality, for folks that go into so much detail about exact shell holder dimensions, It makes zero sense to me to pick up feces off the ground at ranges.

This will alleviate some of the burden since you can get your dies set when you have a piece of brass you like along with a bullet. Sorry for the sidebar, but it seems worth mentioning. That crap you can pick up on the floor of the range turns this conversation largely moot.

Sounds like j-cat picks up HK'd brass for the challenge of reloading it. That's fine, but for beginers, just buy a set.

There are 3 main factors in shooting accurately:
1. Your rig (mostly the barrel)
2. Your ability
3. Your ammo

It's important to have at least two out of the three nailed so you can tinker with the 3rd. Otherwise, it is tough to isolate issues when you have two or more vaiables acting up.

Mine are 80% military once fired, their uniform. their sorted and they wernt picked up off the range floor. Dont know about everyone else but not the case with me

[J-cat]

But did you buy them new?

Do you know in what platform they were fired?

You might as well have picked them up off the ground.

[J-cat]

Sounds like j-cat picks up HK'd brass for the challenge of reloading it. That's fine, but for beginers, just buy a set.

It takes about 5 reloads to iron out those flutes. They are a giant pain for sure. The point I was trying to make is that sizing brass fired in your bolt action rifle is a lot easier than sizing brass fired in somebody else's semi-auto.

[J-cat]

J-Cat
And that is why you tweak a $3 shellholder before you mess up a die.

Yes. Cutting on a die is the last resort. It would be nice if Redding made competition shell holders that are shorter than standard in order to address some of these sizing issues.