Over pressure?

[fguffey]

It's obvious you have never dealt with brass cases that were fired in a long hot chamber and how much they stretch and the effects of stretching that much.

If the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome the die does not make it to the shell holder

Then the question was asked about the ability of the die and shell holder to return the case to minimum length/full length size.

they get resized then reloaded and on the next firing they develop a incipient head separation or completely separate.

My favorite case is a case that is too long from the shoulder to the head of the case, I do not have insipient case head separation. I size cases to fit the chamber, I sized cases to off set the length of the chamber. I have long 30/06 chambers that are long from the shoulder to the bolt face. I form 280 Remington cases for the long 30/06 chamber.

Again, cases fired in a machine gun, why is it so difficult to determine the length of the case from the shoulder to the head of the case before sizing. And then there is that part about trimming. Is that so difficult to keep up with? Many case trimmers set up on the shoulder of the case, the distance from the shoulder/datum to the case head is not included. On one of my long chambers I add the additional length of the case body to the trim to length.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

they get resized then reloaded and on the next firing they develop a incipient head separation or completely separate

WHY! ?

I have heard/read that.

If the cases weren't measured how the hell would I know they needed to be trimmed.

You want credit for measuring the case? Ok, I recognize you as a reloader that measurers the length of the case. I measure the length of the case before firing, before measuring the length of the case I measure the length of the case from the datum/shoulder to the head of the case.

F. Guffey

[Gunsnwater]

I've attached a picture of cases that have begun to separate. The lower "ring" is just the webbing. The thin ring above that is where the case is separating. You can take a paper clip and bend the tip and run it in the case along the side. If it hangs up just above the webbing, the case is separating and you should not use that case again.

Not sure why you would get that with a light load. Have you measured the diameter of the bullets to make sure they're not oversized?

Too much head space.

[J-cat]

J-cat,



Does anyone know how to measure the distance from the shoulder of the die to the deck of the shell holder?

Does anyone know how to make a set of gages that could be used to measure a tapered case diameter?

If the case has more resistance to sizing than the press can overcome the die does not make it to the shell holder. If the die does not make it to the shell holder when the ram is raised a gap is created between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder. When determining the amount of the case that did not get pushed into the die the reloader could measure the gap with a feeler gage. Or, the reloader could remove the shell holder before lowering the ram, after removing the shell holder the reloader could then remove the die with the case protruding from the bottom. After removing the die with the case the reloader could measure the amount of protruding case. In the perfect world there should be .125" case head protrusion.

The shell holder prevents the case head from being sized, it is not possible to size the bottom .125" of the case, then there is the radius at the opening of the die.

reloaders covet head space gages, I use head space gages as transfers and standards, If I was curious about the difference in dies by different manufacturers I would use a standard, I would use a head space gage, if I did not have one that was useful I would make it. Checking dies with one standard would enable the reloader to determine the difference between dies of different manufacturers, and the same manufacturer.

I have dies that are different, not by design but by mistake.

F. Guffey

If the case offers more resistance than the press can overcome then the case usually gets stuck in the die.

If the case does not get stuck in the die, then the die can be turned down more until it touches the shell holder.

If a case is sized such that the bottom of the die touches the top of the shell holder then the case should chamber without sticking.

However, cases that have been fired in machinegun chambers have expanded so much that a standard die may not be able to size them properly. This is due to springback. Typical springback is .001", but machinegun springback is sometimes .004". Because standard dies size the base of a fired case .001"-.002", machine gun case spring-back often causes sticking. You don't feel it during chambering because the camming action is able to overcome the .002" difference. But you sure feel it during extraction.

[fguffey]

If the case offers more resistance than the press can overcome then the case usually gets stuck in the die.

In the perfect world of reloading the reloader would use new cases. Then there are once fired cases. When a case offers more resistance to sizing than my press can overcome my press springs, the ram pushed the top of the press up. It is possible to measure the amount the press is being sprung, it is possible to measure the amount with a dial indicator. The easiest way to measure the effect the case is having on the press is to measure the gap between the bottom of the die and top of the shell holder: If the ram was adjusted to the bottom of the die with the additional fractional turn after contact. To increase the presses ability to overcome resistance the die can be adjusted an additional fraction of a turn.

I have never had a case stick into a die because of additional resistance to sizing.

To increase the presses ability to size the case I raise the case off of the deck of the shell holder with a feeler gage, I can use a .012" thick leaf in most RCBS shell holders and .016" with a Lee shell holder.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Because standard dies size the base of a fired case .001"-.002", machine gun case spring-back often causes sticking. You don't feel it during chambering because the camming action is able to overcome the .002" difference. But you sure feel it during extraction.

Again, my shell holder does not allow the base of the case to be sized, others could call the case base the head of the case. All of my shell holders have a deck height of .125". I do not have a chamber that allows for more than .110" case head protrusion. I do have chambers that have allow for more than .110" unsupported case head, all are Mausers.

I have 03 type rifles that have less case head protrusion, same for M1917s. If my case heads are increasing in diameter I am doing some seriously wrong reloading. My case heads are not supported and I can not size them.

I have dies that are mistakes. I have small base dies, my small base dies do not size the base of my cases, I also have BAR dies, bar dies are small base dies for Auto Feed Browning Automatic Rifles.

F. Guffey

[J-cat]

You have redefined reloading terms. You can't do that. Not here.

All FL sizing dies size the base. They don't size the CASE HEAD. The BASE is the lower part of the case about a quarter inch north of the bottom of the case. The CASE HEAD is the very bottom of the case containing the primer pocket. This is the part that cannot be sized because it is encapsulated by the shell holder and the bottom flare of the die. But that is not what we're talking about in reference to machine gun fired brass. We're talking about the area just above the case head. That area IS sized by the sizer die. A small base die sizes that area more. A standard die sizes that area less. When a case sticks in the chamber, it is there where it sticks.

[bigedp51]

orionn1

When I buy once fired military brass or pickup once fird military brass at the range I resize these cases with a small base die to bring the cases back to minimum SAAMI dimensions.

When resizing these cases with a small base die I pause at the top of the ram stroke and count to four. This stopping and pausing reduces the brass spring back and lets the brass know who is the boss and to stay put after sizing.

A military rifle chamber is approximately .002 larger in diameter than a off the shelf factory rifle with a SAAMI chamber. A machine gun chamber can be .003 to .004 larger in diameter than a SAAMI factory chamber. If you Google machine gun brass you will see many people having the same problem you are having. The good news is American military Lake City brass is built Ford Truck Tough and is very high quality brass and many people use it.

You need small base dies if you are going to buy once fired military brass and not have headaches with fired brass.

Your problem is not chamber pressure, your brass after sizing is springing back to its fired size and is too large for your chamber.

Try sizing the cases with a standard die and counting 3 or 4 seconds before lowering the ram. This "might" reduce the case enough to work in your rifle. "BUT" I would buy small base dies for the first sizing and thereafter use a standard die for all the sizing after this.

I have two AR15 rifles and a bolt action Savage .223 and below are a few of my .223/5.56 dies. As you can see I have a standard small base die and a small base body die for the once fired Lake City brass I buy.

[fguffey]

You have redefined reloading terms. You can't do that. Not here.

I have a choice, I will go with Speer Handloaders Manual volume 1 page 9.

Most reloaders have access to reloading manuals that have case drawings and
nomenclature. All of my drawings have the case head attached to the case body.

It is possible a reloader has written a reloading manual with out conducting the technical research.

All of my dies have a base, all of my cases have a case head. I have case forming dies.

F. Guffey

[bigedp51]

Hello new to sight and have been reloading for about six months .223 and .308
I am using a savage axis .308 however I am getting case stuck in the chamber after firing and from my understanding its a sign of over pressure. I get no other indicators on the cartridge, no pushed out primers no case seperation etc.
Any thoughts?

orionn1

Simple problem, simple fix, and it is not over pressure.

You bought once fired brass that was fired in a military chamber larger in diameter and longer in headspace than your "civilian" Savage rifle.

You have a choice, and you need to put these cases on a diet to slim them down. And you don't need to read the "Speer Handloaders Manual volume 1 page 9".

All you need are small base dies to "squeeze and compress" the once fired cases more than a standard die will. Pausing at the top of the ram stroke and rotating the case 180 and sizing a second time will help even more.

Lake City cases and civilian contract ammunition made for the military are made Ford Truck Tough and the brass is harder than its civilian counterparts. Meaning once it has been fired in a "LARGER" military chamber resizing problems may occur due to brass springback.





All of my once fired .223/5.56 brass below was resized with a small base die, and this is not rocket science. A small base die will return the case back to minimum SAAMI dimensions and then they will fit your chamber without problem.





Also note we live in a plus and minus manufacturing world and resizing dies vary in size. My Lee .223 die sizes the cases smaller in diameter than my small base RCBS die, and pushes the shoulder back .009 shorter than a GO gauge. Meaning this Lee die is on the small side of manufacturing tolerances and really over resizes these cases. And this can cause case head separations if not adjusted properly.

[fguffey]

Forget the Wilson case gauge and buy a Hornady cartridge case headspace gauge. The Hornady gauge is far more accurate and you only need that gauge for every different caliber.

Many reloaders have limited skills, the Wilson case gage has been with us for over 60 years, a very few reloaders caught on from the very beginning, the rest continue to believe all the answers will come with the next tool.

While orionn1 is purchasing additional tools I believe he should consider chamber gages, there are chamber gages available, problem? in my opinion, they are made like the Wilson case gage, the user uses the thumb nail to determine case head protrusion from the gage. Choices? Not many. No one knows the case head protrusion from the chamber of their rifle.

the Wilson case gage was designed to measure case length from the shoulder to the case head on fired and sized cases. It is possible for a reloader to measure the diameter of the case head and area above the case head with a Wilson case gage.

I make my chamber gages, I match the case head protrusion of the gage with the case head protrusion in the chamber. The case head is not sized and the case head is not supported.

Then I ask if anyone could make a tool that would measure the diameter of the case. It seems when the case whips the press it happens at the base of the die. It can happen, again, the case can have more resistance to sizing than the press, die and lube can overcome. I overcome resistance to sizing with a good case lube and press. After that comes cases that have been hammered with high pressure.

F. Guffey

[J-cat]

I have a choice, I will go with Speer Handloaders Manual volume 1 page 9.

Most reloaders have access to reloading manuals that have case drawings and
nomenclature. All of my drawings have the case head attached to the case body.

It is possible a reloader has written a reloading manual with out conducting the technical research.

All of my dies have a base, all of my cases have a case head. I have case forming dies.

F. Guffey

You are refusing to accept reality which is that small base dies size the base of the case smaller than standard dies. This enables the case to fit a tighter chamber and/or a machinegun fired case to fit a standard chamber. This is a fact and if you call any reloading die manufacturer they will concur.

Your fancy philosophy isn't doing anyone any favors.

[fguffey]

You are refusing to accept reality which is that small base dies size the base of the case smaller than standard dies

My case heads are attached to the case body, you insist there is a case base between the case head and case body. All of my dies have bases, again, I have BAR dies, small base dies and I size cases further down the case body than possible with a standard die.

It is possible you have a reloading manual that was written by a reloader. I do not have a drawing of a case that includes a section between the head of the case and case body called 'base'. I accept the possibility you have a manual that was written by a reloader.

Call someone? I have visited and I have called, I called a manufactures about information on the Internet, I was told told there are reloaders that take liberties. I accepted that, but suggested someone get involved in dispelling the misinformation.

F. Guffey

[J-cat]

My case heads are attached to the case body, you insist there is a case base between the case head and case body. All of my dies have bases, again, I have BAR dies, small base dies and I size cases further down the case body than possible with a standard die.

It is possible you have a reloading manual that was written by a reloader. I do not have a drawing of a case that includes a section between the head of the case and case body called 'base'. I accept the possibility you have a manual that was written by a reloader.

Call someone? I have visited and I have called, I called a manufactures about information on the Internet, I was told told there are reloaders that take liberties. I accepted that, but suggested someone get involved in dispelling the misinformation.

F. Guffey

I'm not the only one insisting. All the die manufacturers are calling this a "base" and make specialty dies to size it smaller than a standard die.

[ar15barrels]

A reloader should measure the length of cases from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case before sizing.

Most reloaders don't have the tools or know the techniques to measure shoulder length to the datum.