Campus bans guns: should I still carry?

[lhecker51]

^^^^ THIS ^^^^
With the exception of some LE and folks here that served in combat, none of us can really know what it would take and how we would react when we come face to face with an armed bad guy and have to make a life altering decision.

You may think you know based on hours playing Halo or 10,000 rds at the range or even your 6 tactical classes and or your 4th place at the local 3-gun event.

But in reality when faced with a life threatening situation, most of us (myself included) have no REAL idea of what we will be going through. Can we get on target, can we hold steady, can we hit a target that is firing back.

I for one hope to never have to find out what I am made of. Those paper targets and clays in the air are hard enough for me!

This video comes to mind whenever someone talks about carrying on campus:
(yeah I know its Diane Sawdust, but still makes a decent point)




Good luck OP on you decision

There are several problems with this video that has been kicked around the internet for a few years. I am surprised that you give voice to their fatally flawed argument. I am a retired combat leader and will state here and now, this video is HIGHLY deceptive in how they controlled the conditions of the scenario. I guarantee that training to realistic standards would have provided an entirely different outcome. Remember that the shooter in this video KNEW students would be armed and planned for it. In what bizarro dimension has a mass shooter EVER chosen a risky target (not including those that open fire in a PD because they desire suicide by cop)? They assume that when an armed student is shot, they fall down dead. In reality, an armed person that has been fatally shot has a damn good chance of returning effective fire before they bleed out. This lesson is drilled into the memory of anyone that has ever been in combat.

I would not hesitate to carry. That is my choice. We live in a dangerous world were highly populated gun free zones are an active shooters paradise. Uniformed armed security is just a speed bump. They will be the first to go.

What this video deceptively suggests is that the average citizen is incapable of defending themselves and should just resign themselves to their fate as a sheep going to slaughter.

I've got news for you: There will be many more of these incidents as the moral fabric of society continues to disintegrate. Not one of those Gun Free School Zone signs has ever saved a life.

The ONLY point this video makes is to remind folks of the need to train as you would fight in an active engagement, to realistic standards that simulate the environment and weapons systems you will have.

[calif 15-22]

There are several problems with this video that has been kicked around the internet for a few years. I am surprised that you give voice to their fatally flawed argument. I am a retired combat leader and will state here and now, this video is HIGHLY deceptive in how they controlled the conditions of the scenario. I guarantee that training to realistic standards would have provided an entirely different outcome. Remember that the shooter in this video KNEW students would be armed and planned for it. In what bizarro dimension has a mass shooter EVER chosen a risky target (not including those that open fire in a PD because they desire suicide by cop)? They assume that when an armed student is shot, they fall down dead. In reality, an armed person that has been fatally shot has a damn good chance of returning effective fire before they bleed out. This lesson is drilled into the memory of anyone that has ever been in combat.

I would not hesitate to carry. That is my choice. We live in a dangerous world were highly populated gun free zones are an active shooters paradise. Uniformed armed security is just a speed bump. They will be the first to go.

I agree the video is s flawed. but from what I can tell the OP is not a "Retired Combat Leader" as you are and therefore most likely NOT as well trained as you are. Putting aside the fact that it was all staged, an intruder came into a class room armed and people panicked. Even the two students who reacted were both shot. I would argue in a real world classroom the reaction time by an armed student to an intruder would be even less. Much less. Head down in a book or day dreaming about the cute blonde in the 3rd row, them BAM! guy walks in the door.

That is difference between someone well trained as yourself and someone like the OP or me that has some range time, a class or two, but does not drill weekly and or had lots of professional training.

[SanPedroShooter]

I agree the video is s flawed. but from what I can tell the OP is not a "Retired Combat Leader" as you are and therefore most likely NOT as well trained as you are. Putting aside the fact that it was all staged, an intruder came into a class room armed and people panicked. Even the two students who reacted were both shot. I would argue in a real world classroom the reaction time by an armed student to an intruder would be even less. Much less. Head down in a book or day dreaming about the cute blonde in the 3rd row, them BAM! guy walks in the door.

That is difference between someone well trained as yourself and someone like the OP or me that has some range time, a class or two, but does not drill weekly and or had lots of professional training.

So essentially because a gun is not a magic talisman I shouldn't carry one?

If someone targets you while you are not paying or even if you are and they get the clear jump on you, you are going to die.

Gun or no gun.

Setting aside the gross misrepresentations in the much debated and debunked hit piece, how would you feel about waiting unarmed in a dark classroom for a gunman to force the door and the start killing people at will?

Because the unassuming victim of a crime can never beat the reaction of a surprise attack is no reason not to be prepared to respond if given the opportunity.

[calif 15-22]

So essentially because a gun is not a magic talisman I shouldn't carry one?

If someone targets you while you are not paying or even if you are and they get the clear jump on you, you are going to die.

Gun or no gun.

Setting aside the gross misrepresentations in the much debated and debunked hit piece, how would you feel about waiting unarmed in a dark classroom for a gunman to force the door and the start killing people at will?

Because the unassuming victim of a crime can never beat the reaction of a surprise attack is no reason not to be prepared to respond if given the opportunity.

Dang I had to Google "talisman"

The title of the this thread and the original post from OP is "Should I still carry" I being the key word here. Should the OP play the odds of my 1:50 guess or another post suggested 1:10,000 chance of needing it vs getting caught and kicked out of school and or further actions.

I've heard all the "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" before and it most likely is true. But for the average kid in college who had to come onto this forum and ask "should I", I would argue is not ready. For others only you can decide for yourselves

[ja308]

My advice concerns having the gun in your backpack . I would say if you plan on carrying, use a IWB strong side carry holster ( milt sparks ) makes good ones molded for your gun .

How does the law read if the mag were in your backpack or not in the gun ?

The back pack could lead to suspicious behavior and could even be accidentally left behind .

[rambutan316]

What's your decision?

I decided not to carry on campus for now; it doesn't seem like it's worth the risk. There's too many things that could go wrong, such as something stupid like a friend finding out and shouting out loud unintentionally, causing a stir. I don't like to be a unarmed victim, which is why my decision angers and saddens me. Hopefully, things change in the future when people realize how important law-abiding gun owners are.

[Thermapen]

OP has noble intentions. There are other alternatives while in a gun-free zone. Invest in mindset (situational awareness, hanging out with the right crowd, avoiding the wrong places) and skillset (self-defense or martial arts training, medical training).
When all hell breaks loose, its hard to say whether we're the one to end the threat with force or to guide others out of harm's way. Prepare for both.

[Artema]

Check out the Kimber pepper spray "guns" or something. I've heard they're pretty awesome.

[4Defense]

I've got news for you: There will be many more of these incidents as the moral fabric of society continues to disintegrate. Not one of those Gun Free School Zone signs has ever saved a life.

Ahhhhh, at least something reasonable came out of this thread. There will be more, much more. Politicians will feed off of it to further enhanced their names and pockets. At the cost of pain and sufferings of the victims.

[lhecker51]

I agree the video is s flawed. but from what I can tell the OP is not a "Retired Combat Leader" as you are and therefore most likely NOT as well trained as you are. Putting aside the fact that it was all staged, an intruder came into a class room armed and people panicked. Even the two students who reacted were both shot. I would argue in a real world classroom the reaction time by an armed student to an intruder would be even less. Much less. Head down in a book or day dreaming about the cute blonde in the 3rd row, them BAM! guy walks in the door.

That is difference between someone well trained as yourself and someone like the OP or me that has some range time, a class or two, but does not drill weekly and or had lots of professional training.

The shooter in the video is a seasoned, well trained cop. The armed students have minimal training. What is their point? Of course the cop will win 100% of the time.

Given that, armed students in the next classroom in a real world situation will have a much better chance especially if they work as a team which will put the active shooter at an huge disadvantage.

[lhecker51]

Dang I had to Google "talisman"

The title of the this thread and the original post from OP is "Should I still carry" I being the key word here. Should the OP play the odds of my 1:50 guess or another post suggested 1:10,000 chance of needing it vs getting caught and kicked out of school and or further actions.

I've heard all the "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" before and it most likely is true. But for the average kid in college who had to come onto this forum and ask "should I", I would argue is not ready. For others only you can decide for yourselves

I agree that he is not ready, IMO. There are so many moving parts in an active shooter situation that regular training and exercise is required to assess and react instinctively.

[SanPedroShooter]

Dang I had to Google "talisman"

The title of the this thread and the original post from OP is "Should I still carry" I being the key word here. Should the OP play the odds of my 1:50 guess or another post suggested 1:10,000 chance of needing it vs getting caught and kicked out of school and or further actions.

I've heard all the "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" before and it most likely is true. But for the average kid in college who had to come onto this forum and ask "should I", I would argue is not ready. For others only you can decide for yourselves

I don't disagree, but that video bugs me.

Well not the video so much but the way the conclusions are presented.

[calif 15-22]

I agree that he is not ready, IMO. There are so many moving parts in an active shooter situation that regular training and exercise is required to assess and react instinctively.

Agreed . . .for someone such as yourself lhecker, the reactions are instinctive and from muscle memory. You've been trained and most likely spent countless hours with simulations of multiple scenarios. OP (and most of us myself included) have little or now real world experience, so our reactions and actions will come with little or no previous training. The best outcome for us is we may stop an attacker. The worst outcome is a stray round finds someone else. Since OP (and most of us) have no military or formal training, our reactions (in general) at best will be slower and less focused than an attacker. Most of us have never been under the stress and pressure of war or specialized training. Halo with no re-spawning lives left doesn't count

I don't disagree, but that video bugs me.
Well not the video so much but the way the conclusions are presented.

That video bugs me as well. Especially the how the conclusions are portrayed. I was trying to find a video of some real world example of someone entering a classroom and what reactions they would get. I agree Diane Sawdust is ridiculous and her conclusions are very one sided. Having said that, I think how the class reacted "might" be spot on. Panic, chaos and then the two that were carrying get shot. Granted the "intruder" was a trained specialist, but I think the reaction but most (not all but most of us untrained) would be similar. We are just not on the heightened level of awareness every minute during a long boring class on Art History in the 1300's, to constantly be evaluating our situation every moment.

Others like lheckler51 who have spent years training, would do much much better in a situation like that the average Calgun student who wants to carry.

Just my opinion only others may differ and have different outcomes.

Good Discussion by the way . . .

[PsychGuy274]

Just wondering if its worth the risk of carrying concealed on campus. I currently go to a university in Arizona that bans guns on campus, even though it is constitutional carry once I step off campus. I was planning on carrying my M&P9c in a secure holster in my backpack.

No one is going to search my bag unless its for a good reason. I keep a low profile so I see no reason why someone would stop me in the middle of the day to search my backpack.

I just don't want to be a victim and don't want others to be victims, either. If a psychopath decides to commit his atrocity on campus, I want to put an end to it before he/she annihilates an entire lecture hall. God knows how many people could be killed before police arrive. That is why I want to carry on campus.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Just a little perspective from a law enforcement officer that works on a university campus in Colorado. Over here, if you have a valid concealed weapons permit, you can legally carry a concealed handgun on campus. If you don't have a CCW, carrying without a permit in this state is generally a class 2 misdemeanor, but escalates to a class 6 felony on university grounds. Additionally, in this state, you can legally keep a loaded pistol in your vehicle on university grounds without having a CCW.

Now, every state is different concerning their carry laws, especially on university grounds. If it escalates to the level of felony, and you're carrying for self-defense, keep in mind that you're risking your right to self-defense for the rest of your life. Even if it turns out to be legal, your university might have regulations against it which can mean expulsion. Not worth it in my book.

Check you state's laws. Nothing I post is legal advice, just perspective.

[Badmusic]

No.