Need input on a possible new venture

[gaberaynes]

No your right those are really valid points and I have written them down in my note book that I am using to get all my ducks in a row I really appreciate that insight keep them coming

[Off the Roster]

you definitely need insurance and a LLC would be smart given the litigious nature of cali. i do not know all the ins and outs of bonding, but it bears investigation imo. where your business is labor only and not goods/resale you should not require a sellers permit (until CA taxes all labor) but, to be extra safe make certain all firearms have been fired so they can only be classified as "used" and your services do not involve the initial cleaning of a "new" gun.

business cards, a website, and gift certificates are probably the 3 other investments that need to come out of your pocket almost immediately if you choose to move forward ($100 give or take would cover all 3). where are you located?? i would be happy to trade design services for gun cleaning!

[gaberaynes]

you definitely need insurance and a LLC would be smart given the litigious nature of cali. i do not know all the ins and outs of bonding, but it bears investigation imo. where your business is labor only and not goods/resale you should not require a sellers permit (until CA taxes all labor) but, to be extra safe make certain all firearms have been fired so they can only be classified as "used" and your services do not involve the initial cleaning of a "new" gun.

business cards, a website, and gift certificates are probably the 3 other investments that need to come out of your pocket almost immediately if you choose to move forward ($100 give or take would cover all 3). where are you located?? i would be happy to trade design services for gun cleaning!

Thats advertise now I fall under ATF guidelines where need FFL

[Baboosh]

you definitely need insurance and a LLC would be smart given the litigious nature of cali. i do not know all the ins and outs of bonding, but it bears investigation imo. where your business is labor only and not goods/resale you should not require a sellers permit (until CA taxes all labor) but, to be extra safe make certain all firearms have been fired so they can only be classified as "used" and your services do not involve the initial cleaning of a "new" gun.

business cards, a website, and gift certificates are probably the 3 other investments that need to come out of your pocket almost immediately if you choose to move forward ($100 give or take would cover all 3). where are you located?? i would be happy to trade design services for gun cleaning!

He'd be stupid to go to Turners and buy his supplies so he should get a resellers permit so he can buy directly from distributors. He would just report $0 in sales quarterly.

Don't worry about bonds.

No idea what difference it makes cleaning a 'new' or used gun. Being fired doesn't matter, once it is bought and DROSed it is used.

If you get a business and website make sure you get a city business license. They love to Google new businesses and then hit them with fees. If you just plop a sign up at the local range and park your van with a table you are less likely to get 'discovered'.

[Baboosh]

Thats advertise now I fall under ATF guidelines where need FFL

Don't quote me on that, I was just throwing it out there. But yes once you advertise and perform a function for profit you are a business.

[Off the Roster]

Thats advertise now I fall under ATF guidelines where need FFL

can you please supply the source of reference for this statement? thank you.

[Baboosh]

can you please supply the source of reference for this statement? thank you.

He is advertising a service that includes work on firearms and the ATF is not clear if they consider cleaning gunsmithing. If he advertises a service the ATF considers gunsmithing he is doing business without a license.

[BigPimping]

Better off with a Baskin Robbins franchise.

[Baboosh]

Better off with a Baskin Robbins franchise.

Not too sure. I think there is plenty of business to be made at a range offering this service. Will it be worth it if a FFL, insurance and LLC is needed? Maybe but there is only one way to find out.

Front $2k and spend a year working your *** off. You either find out it was a good idea or you fail and learn something and go another direction. You'll never know if you don't try and you'll never learn more than when you fail.

[Off the Roster]

No idea what difference it makes cleaning a 'new' or used gun. Being fired doesn't matter, once it is bought and DROSed it is used.

because Cali does tax some versions of labor. if you take a pair of brand new pants to be fitted, the tailor is supposed to collect tax. however, on a used pair there is no tax collection required. it is pure semantics and cleaning is different from altering BUT given the climate of firearms in Cali it would be prudent to protect ones self from all angles just in case - imho

[Off the Roster]

He is advertising a service that includes work on firearms and the ATF is not clear if they consider cleaning gunsmithing. If he advertises a service the ATF considers gunsmithing he is doing business without a license.

again semantics but indeed ones to be investigated strongly. the ATF definition of gunsmith involves the repair and/or fitting of items and cleaning encompasses neither.

advertisement = business yes

does this business need a FFL? = TBD

as far as an initial investment/failure loss perspective, this is extremely cheap compared to most ventures. keep good records for the IRS and failure gets cheaper still (but imo that is not a huge issue as you are likely to earn you seed money back)

[Baboosh]

because Cali does tax some versions of labor. if you take a pair of brand new pants to be fitted, the tailor is supposed to collect tax. however, on a used pair there is no tax collection required. it is pure semantics and cleaning is different from altering BUT given the climate of firearms in Cali it would be prudent to protect ones self from all angles just in case - imho

That is because items that are not altered are not considered finished items, they are considered material. After being altered to fit you directly that is the finished item and therefore tax is applied because that is the finished product.

In the eyes of the BOE your first purchase was for wool, your second purchase (the alteration) were pants.

If I remember this scenario right.


He will be taking a complete item and not adding anything. Look at it like dry cleaning, you are not taxed for simply dry cleaning an item.

[gaberaynes]

Not too sure. I think there is plenty of business to be made at a range offering this service. Will it be worth it if a FFL, insurance and LLC is needed? Maybe but there is only one way to find out.

Front $2k and spend a year working your *** off. You either find out it was a good idea or you fail and learn something and go another direction. You'll never know if you don't try and you'll never learn more than when you fail.

I think your right there would be alot of interest that is why I started this thread and yes I want to be a cheap *** and spend as little as possible on this to start, Because if there is not alot of interest I would like to be able to walk away with out have had to spend my life savings and kids college money.
My real intention for this thread is to see how many people would like someone to offer this service If all else I will get the FFL or if by some freak mishap I cant My wife will get the FFL and I will work under her but thats only If I think that this will make a descent amount of money and a good buisness for now I want a feel and do it as a time waster / hobby

[Baboosh]

again semantics but indeed ones to be investigated strongly. the ATF definition of gunsmith involves the repair and/or fitting of items and cleaning encompasses neither.

advertisement = business yes

does this business need a FFL? = TBD

Hence why I told him to call the ATF since they are not clear. They may consider cleaning a routine repair.

Think of it like this. If you buy a Aero precision lower and a CMMG upper at the same gun store and they assemble it they must be an 07 and they have to engrave their name on the receiver because they manufactured it. Even though the lower is considered the gun and it was already manufactured.

However if you buy a CMMG upper and and brought in your own Aero lower they are just performing gunsmithing. You are doing nothing more than above but it is classified different.

The ATF is not always clear on things.

[Baboosh]

I think your right there would be alot of interest that is why I started this thread and yes I want to be a cheap *** and spend as little as possible on this to start, Because if there is not alot of interest I would like to be able to walk away with out have had to spend my life savings and kids college money.
My real intention for this thread is to see how many people would like someone to offer this service If all else I will get the FFL or if by some freak mishap I cant My wife will get the FFL and I will work under her but thats only If I think that this will make a descent amount of money and a good buisness for now I want a feel and do it as a time waster / hobby

I do not think you will need an FFL, that was just worst case.

Business license $35 (or whatever your city charges)
Reseller permit: Free
Insurance: $1mil umbrella $250ish a year

Start there and then hit up your local ranges. IMO I wouldn't ask ranges without having this, most businesses is not going to allow a non licensed uninsured business do business on their property. Too much liability for them as attorneys go after the deep pockets and not the little guy.

So for $300 you swim or sink, doesn't get much cheaper than that.