Future weapons and 5.56mm

[kurac]

I don't know what the statistics are for the current conflicts we are involved in but historically small arms only account for a very small percentage of enemy casualties, so changing to a bigger better moustrap may have little impact on the overall scenerio.

[dwtt]

On the contrary....we notice how those that have u.s. gov't-contracts tend to do whatever they can to protect it. even at the cost of u.s. soldier lifes. therefore they trash other calibers and defend 5.56 to keep them AR's coming. if not for buraucracy our army would be better equipped and better prepared for battle with less casualties on our side. had more marines carry new and improved weapons-more of our soldiers would come home alive.
ever thought of that wise guy?

The way it works is the govt agency, DOD, DOE, DOJ, whoever, determines what they need and puts out a RFP (request for proposal). The RFP specifies things like calibers in the case of firearms. It's not the contractors who tell the govt what caliber to use, it's the other way around.

As for the "would be better equipped and better prepared" line, the 5.56 seemed to work fine when I was in the Marine Corps. I remember shooting a M-60 and a SAW and getting the SAW on target faster and more consistently. But maybe it was beginner's luck. Of course, this ignores one of the most important elements in success in war, the soldier. Giving our soldiers good training is more important than anything else, but most of us already knew that.

Also, this show Future Weapons seems like a joke. They once talked about the SMAW like it's a new weapon, but the SMAW was in the inventory in the mid 1980's. Then there's the unforgettable .308 AK-47 round being presented by a former Navy Seal sniper. I mean, the shows target audience seem to be people who have never been in the military or fired a weapon in their lives.

[1lostinspace]

I don't see any reason to change. I also don't see any reason for the military to be looking at an AR10 type sniper rifle when the M14 works just fine.

[tonelar]

A friend of mine came back from Grenada with his leg in a brace. He was shot in the knee by a 7.62x39 round. His CO told him he was lucky it wasn't a .223.

I asked him why, he said, "One .223 hit in the knee would be the end of my leg from the knee cap down."

[csmintel]

I think your grenada friend mistaken 5.56 for 7.62 round. if he was being shot with an ak round-then he is lucky to have his leg intact.

there are good combo weapons even from magpull

to dwdt:
You obviously have no real life idea how supply to u.s. gov't works. it is supply people who tells u.s. what to buy.

I agree that tv shows are targeting novice and young people who explore warfare. Also i think they get paid to introduce new weapons hoping to generate enough buzz. like .416 barret which ( hopefully ) might end up CA legal.

[M. Sage]

I hate how people hunt deer with a bow and arrow.

Why? I'd be willing to bet a bow with broadheads actually does more damage than a rifle. It's the shot-placement that more often messes bow hunters up. You need a lot more skill to bow hunt.

I large bullet that does not frag just passes right through making a whole the size of caliber.

Not true. Larger bullets can fragment and tumble. The British .303 was an excellent round for making an end-around before the exit. The 7.62x39mm wound profile you showed was an older one, newer x39 with the hollow tips (not hollow points, just no lead in the point) apparently tumbles a lot more easily.

None of these new rounds are effective in FA, further more the weight twice as much, there for you carry less, during the Korean war people ran out of ammo and had to retreat all the time. You are more likely to run out of ammo then shoot someone with 5.56mm and have them just keep running at you.
The lack of stopping power is bad shot placement, if they want to increase stopping power 77SMK is more then enough. There is no reason to switch caliber. A 3 round burst with these new calibers would get you 1 hit the rest would be up and to the right, in 5.56mm you would get 2-3 hits. All the Marines I have talked to coming back all say the same thing everyone I saw get hit was down or crawling on ground hopping they were dead.

Full auto is used how much again? Even burst isn't used much. Troops are trained for single-fire except in certain situations. You talk shot placement, then go to FA/burst use. FA and burst are not conducive to shot placement no matter what caliber you're talking about.

[dwtt]

to dwdt:
You obviously have no real life idea how supply to u.s. gov't works. it is supply people who tells u.s. what to buy.

Yeah, I guess it's obvious. I was only a SME for many govt contracts and wrote up the technical specs for contracts costing $200K-$700K or so. No real life experience at all.

It seems csmintel should stop with his conspiracy mentality. The 5.56 cartridge being in service wasn't the result of contractors protecting their contracts or fixing the system.

[1lostinspace]

Why? I'd be willing to bet a bow with broadheads actually does more damage than a rifle. It's the shot-placement that more often messes bow hunters up. You need a lot more skill to bow hunt.


Not true. Larger bullets can fragment and tumble. The British .303 was an excellent round for making an end-around before the exit. The 7.62x39mm wound profile you showed was an older one, newer x39 with the hollow tips (not hollow points, just no lead in the point) apparently tumbles a lot more easily.




Full auto is used how much again? Even burst isn't used much. Troops are trained for single-fire except in certain situations. You talk shot placement, then go to FA/burst use. FA and burst are not conducive to shot placement no matter what caliber you're talking about.

Here is the 5.45x39 your talking about and it's coming from an AK74 5.45 is even smaller then 5.56mm so if anything it proves that a small caliber rifle will kill just fine. Still clearly it does not leave the huge permanent cavity the 5.56mm does


No large bullet will and has and ever will frag like 5.56mm in order for any FMJ to frag it has to be going at least 2700 FPS+ there are German .308 rounds that frag a little bit better but again nothing like 5.56mm

FA is used all the time (SAW) if not FA 3 round burst is used more then single shot.
It's not hard to get a 3 round hit at 100 meters with a 3 round burst.

about bow hunting

Then why do deer run off and die? I have never seen a deer drop from a bow strike.

[csmintel]

writing the specs. so who ordered those specs dwtt? working in gov't contract you could not tie your own shoe laces without being told what to do. please, conspirator enough amusing everyone here.
rotfl....you a SME? lol.

[CavTrooper]

FA is used in all the time if not FA 3 round burst is used more then single shot.
It's not hard to get a 3 round hit at 100 meters with a 3 round burst.
.

I rarely use burst, if ever. Im pretty sure thats the standard. Burst has its purpos and it aint hitting targets, its keeping a guys head down. Dumping 30 rounds downrange on semi is quick enough.

[1lostinspace]

It always makes me wonder where people get their info from?
Do some things just explode in their head and out their mouth?
5.56mm is used all around the world, even the Russians are going to it (AK 101 series) The only thing that will replace the 5.56mm will be lasers and we are far from that.

[csmintel]

I thought of laser rifles too. hopefully they will not be banned in CA.....lol

[1lostinspace]

I rarely use burst, if ever. Im pretty sure thats the standard. Burst has its purpos and it aint hitting targets, its keeping a guys head down. Dumping 30 rounds downrange on semi is quick enough.

Out of all the videos of I have seen of the sandbox they are in FA or burst, single shots are used for pin point shots. But I am with you on the single shot, I would like to make them count.

But back on subject the 5.56mm especially with MOD1 or any BTHP will kill just fine.

[rue]

The IDF has lots of experience, and manufactures their own ammo. They choose 5.56 and the M16 for a reason. Heck they retired the Galil. There is something very effective about well placed shots.

No offense but I hate when people mention the IDF everytime a thread comes up like this. I was talking about martial arts the other day and the IDF gets mentioned and the guy said Krav Maga is the best or whatever because the IDF uses it. Am I the only one that doesn't think the IDF is the best army in the world? I think anything would work against a bunch of third world rock throwers. IDF doesn't own just because they can beat down the Palestininians.
Yeah I said it and no I'm not an anti-jewish either just a realist.

[milsurpshooter]

well in my opinion you really can't go wrong with what ever you use, 30 cal or 5.56 they have both killed an exceptional number of people over the years. even the 9mm has done away with a large number of individuals. the way i figure it dead is dead, it really doesn't matter how you get there. just my $0.02 cents.

p.s. IBTL.......