Does law Enforcement really need select fire?

[KABA556]

Hey where did you get a pic of KABA556??????

That could very well be your picture...




I'm not sure how to picture you-

[therealnickb]

Do law enforcement agents need select fire weapons?

Half observation and half debate here.

I feel that there are way too many select fire weapons possessed by LE - and oddball LE agencies like Social Security Administration, USDA, Department of Education - when there are so few real-world scenarios that call for them.

I used fully automatic main guns and crew-served weapons in combat. There was a need for it on specific missions.

That was war. That was a situation where everything in front of us was was open season.

I still didn't shoot at things I couldn't reach or see. I still placed my shots and hit what I was aiming at.

PS: I'm not hating on select fire weapons. If I lived in a free state and they didn't cost $12k for even an old POS I would probably own one.

Need? Who knows.

Should we all be able to own them? Yes.

[cindynles]

I don't "need" a FA (but I do want one). Luckily I can simulate FA (or at least burst) with my trusty 1911 .

[IrishJoe3]

I don't "need" a FA (but I do want one). Luckily I can simulate FA (or at least burst) with my trusty 1911 .

NICE VIDEO! Impressive skill!

[SVT-40]

I'm not sure how to picture you-

More like this, but without the donut, and I have a mustache.....

[audiophil2]

I don't really have a problem with anyone owning full auto weapons. Full auto really doesn't do much for you unless you are unskilled and "spray and pray". Even with my M-16 on full auto I was much better off firing short bursts than sustained auto fire.

When I run my M16 as an "assault weapon" I shoot in bursts. Mags empty too fast for anything else. When I put on my Ares Defense belt fed upper or my Lakeside Machine .22lr belt fed upper I shoot about 30-50 round bursts with 200 round belts.

The AR platform has a lousy 3 round burst cam. Same as the Ruger AAC556. Fire a 2 shot burst and the next trigger pull is 1 round, not 3. The HK guns can reset to 3 round burst even if you only shoot 1 round and release the trigger.

[Safety1st]

We could use a Pinochet, somebody who cleans house and restores the rule of law, preparing the nation for free elections and then stepping down.

I doubt anyone wants a Pinochet in power. Unless you're part of the ruling elite of course. A regime like Pinochet's would just "disappear you" and that would be that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

[ivanimal]

If the bad guys have them. Yes.

[KABA556]

I doubt anyone wants a Pinochet in power. Unless you're part of the ruling elite of course. A regime like Pinochet's would just "disappear you" and that would be that.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

Salvador Allende began using Cuban and Soviet provided arms to equip his party militia, the party militia went into the countryside to terrorize rural landowners, and they began shutting down opposition newspapers and radio stations. Allende's election was even hotly contested and was rife with violence.

The Supreme Court told Allende, "you are not allowed to do these things, you cannot shut down radio stations just because you are the president. You cannot nationalize farms! You cannot arrest journalists who write about your actions!"

Allende's response was something along the lines of, "who are you to stop the people's revolution, we will not be stopped, long live the revolution!"

The Supreme Court of Chile then went to the military and asked generals, such as Pinochet and some others, "Please upheld the laws of our nation and remove President Allende from power."

Pinochet launched a coup, removed Allende from power, established a dictatorship to undo the damage that the communists had done, and after 8 years he won an election and then after another 8 years he held another open and free election, he lost this election, and he went away peacefully.

A tyrant wouldn't bother with elections or the elections would be transparently fraudulent, and he wouldn't leave peacefully upon losing.


Pinochet was a true Chilean patriot who knew strong measures were needed to undo the damage that Allende and the communists had done.

[KABA556]

I doubt anyone wants a Pinochet in power. Unless you're part of the ruling elite of course. A regime like Pinochet's would just "disappear you" and that would be that.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augusto_Pinochet

Pinochet had to deal with militant communists who, during the brief regime of Allende, and the run-up to that regime, had murdered police, terrorized land-owners, occupied radio stations, killed journalists, etc.

Also, as soon as Allende was removed from power [a move carried out the Pinochet and the military upon the request of the Supreme Court of Chile] Allende's communist party and his party militia began a 10-15 year long insurgency, killing police, killing land-owners, setting off bombs, etc.


So Pinochet's 16 year administration resulted in the death of perhaps 3,200 civilians... I'd say it was a very restrained and light-handed counter insurgency campaign. That's approximately 200 people per year if you accept the highest estimate of 3,200 killed. I imagine there were some weeks in Iraq where at least 1,000 civilians were killed. I imagine more than 200 civilians were killed each year in Vietnam.

Pinochet's counter insurgency campaign had a very soft touch indeed if no more than 200 people were killed per year.

[Full Clip]

While I think a lot of cops are trigger happy:



They also sometimes (if rarely) have to deal with this:

[bsg]

yes.

[KABA556]

While I think a lot of cops are trigger happy:



They also sometimes (if rarely) have to deal with this:

When Charles Whitman opened fire from the clock tower at the University of Texas in Austin, regular citizens returned fire with their rifles and helped suppress him. After his initial attack, he began receiving large amounts of return fire from citizens who had realized what was going on and had been able to retrieve their rifles from their vehicles and respond.

He was also no longer able to lean over the edge on the tower and take well-aimed shots at people below. He would only pop up for a second or two and take a quick shot.

If I remember the article properly, after the citizens began to fire at him, he was unable to kill anybody else, although he tried.


If citizens in California were allowed to drive around with loaded rifles in their vehicles, or even just an empty rifle with a loaded magazine next to the rifle, I imagine the North Hollywood Shootout would have involved far less shooting than it did.

[Artema]

Exactly, just what he said about there being no discernible difference between the police and the army...

I realize what you're saying, but that almost sounded pretty insulting, lol. Training is the real difference.

[cannon]

Lots of interesting posts and opinions. So I'll add my random responses and opinions.

ARs in patrol cars. Someone was against that but living in a rural area like I do They are required as the distances and situations out here exceed shotgun range.

Should patrol officers have FA. I think not. A FA weapon is a suppression weapon and the collateral damage potential is massive. SWAT teams probably have a valid use for them.

And finally... I'd be a whole lot happier if the police weren't heading (running actually) in the military dress, tactics and weapons direction.