Tactical Excess?

[Untamed1972]

And to some degree Silver....if you're going to rip the guys for taking the training.......shouldn't you also be ripping the guys offering the training?

[naeco81]

If someone gets interested in shooting and gun ownership because they like the idea of handling doing "tactical stuff", with tactical gear (of either the military or the SWAT variety), who are we to tell them that they are not welcome in the community, because they are starting out "wrong"?

Nowhere did I say people aren't welcome in the community. Read my post again please. What I said is that if people in our community that are in the know don't speak up, the everything tactical crowd will be the de facto voice that new shooters are introduced to. This is a problem because most of their advice stems from an insecure need to justify their own purchasing. Again, I have no problem with people buying whatever they want for their rifle. It's one thing for me to decide I want to smoke cigs. It's another thing entirely to go around advocating that to everyone who will listen so I can feel better about my decision to smoke.

I'd caution against the hypocrisy of what you deem appropriate reasons to get into firearms.

Perhaps your original statement was misunderstood, if you were really basing your logic on people taking an interest on specific hobbies/activities but because they are not "trained professionals" that they should reconsider. Consider this, http://www.buyemp.com/product/l-a-re...t-call-in-bag1, everyone has different variations of them, but how many have actually had the "professional training" to properly use them. By your statement we should stop annoying you, stop wasting our time/money, and instead join the gym because that would increase our chances of survival. Keeping your statement in mind, we do not use these "tools" everyday, they only pop up during emergencies which realistically may or may not happen today, tomorrow, or a few weeks/months from now. Should all the non pro's toss our emergency first aid kits and get our behinds to the gym?

I would rather have it and not need to use it, then to need to use it and not have it.

More to add, fire extinguishers, fire sprinklers, fire drills for campuses, we are no fire fighters should we not provide them at schools or office buildings? I mean really, we don't train with them, they just have a card depicting it's use, you get a very brief overview of what to do during indoctrination. Again, keep in mind, we are not professionals that use them as tools everyday. Your opinion regarding what is necessary and what people "should or should not" do is ridiculous...

I'm sorry but I find this post rather incoherent and I can't tell if you're addressing me. I'll assume so because of the mention of a gym membership. Let me be clear - I never said anything about buying equipment related to trained professionals or that people shouldn't buy things they find useful or entertaining. I did state that personally I feel a gym membership is far more tactical than any equipment and I stand by that statement. However, this was clearly prefaced with my personal take.

Like I said.....there are a-hole douchebags in just about every hoddy & sport there is. Hell.....there are even yoga snobs! LOL There exists in this world all manner of folks seeking a sense of identity via exterior means. That will never change.

Just accept that they exist and ignore them.

My advice to anyone is: Just learn to spot them. They're usually the ones who constantly have to do most of the talking.

My experiences in tactical training with actual SF professionals is when on the line they're all business but otherwise they're generally pretty low key and humble.

Ignoring them is precisely the wrong approach IMO. They have every right to buy whatever they want, sure. They also have a right to promote their purchasing decisions in an effort to seek validation. Yeah it's lame, but they enjoy that right. Similarly, we have a right to criticize those validation attempts and in my opinion a responsibility to do so. Like I said before, the loudest voice in the room will polarize newcomers or the uneducated. I'd like that voice to be the voice of reason, not the one that claims you need a laser and a flashlight on every weapon you own.

I'm not advocating the banning of any behavior. Obviously none of us has the authority or means to accomplish that. I'm advocating for more reasonable minds to participate in the discussion instead of ignoring it so that Calguns isn't made out to be a community full of tactical excess.

[Untamed1972]

Ignoring them is precisely the wrong approach IMO. They have every right to buy whatever they want, sure. They also have a right to promote their purchasing decisions in an effort to seek validation. Yeah it's lame, but they enjoy that right. Similarly, we have a right to criticize those validation attempts and in my opinion a responsibility to do so. Like I said before, the loudest voice in the room will polarize newcomers or the uneducated. I'd like that voice to be the voice of reason, not the one that claims you need a laser and a flashlight on every weapon you own.

I'm not advocating the banning of any behavior. Obviously none of us has the authority or means to accomplish that. I'm advocating for more reasonable minds to participate in the discussion instead of ignoring it so that Calguns isn't made out to be a community full of tactical excess.

Personally.....we as a society need to stop coddling people. They need to stand up and be adults and learn to think and act for themselves.

Sometimes a good lesson can be learned from listening to someone else's bad advice. Nothing is gain in life by trying to shield people from growth experiences.

[naeco81]

Personally.....we as a society need to stop coddling people. They need to stand up and be adults and learn to think and act for themselves.

Sometimes a good lesson can be learned from listening to someone else's bad advice. Nothing is gain in life by trying to shield people from growth experiences.

That's a fair criticism of my assertion so thanks for making your point. I agree with you to an extent; self-reliance is a virtue that I also believe in promoting, however this isn't a stark black & white issue to me. If we were to treat it as such there would be no purpose for any sort of education as all of it could be seen as coddling. Instead I think there is a balance to be struck, and for each person that point may be different. I don't think it coddling to give out sensible advice on a forum especially when so much of the existing information is misguided, but to each their own. Personally I think your yoga snob analogy is apt and perhaps in that case it could just be ignored, but given that all our rights are under attack from many directions I tend to favor things that I believe will help strengthen our community.

Thanks for the discussion!

[Untamed1972]

That's a fair criticism of my assertion so thanks for making your point. I agree with you to an extent; self-reliance is a virtue that I also believe in promoting, however this isn't a stark black & white issue to me. If we were to treat it as such there would be no purpose for any sort of education as all of it could be seen as coddling. Instead I think there is a balance to be struck, and for each person that point may be different. I don't think it coddling to give out sensible advice on a forum especially when so much of the existing information is misguided, but to each their own. Personally I think your yoga snob analogy is apt and perhaps in that case it could just be ignored, but given that all our rights are under attack from many directions I tend to favor things that I believe will help strengthen our community.

Thanks for the discussion!

I can agree with that. Some used the "loudest voice in the room" analogy. My point is make sure that in trying to put good info out there that you dont become the other end of the bell curve of snobbery and douchiness.

When people come here seeking advice, offer what you have to share and leave it at that. It's then up to each individual to take what they like and leave the rest. If you engage in trying to tear apart the douchebags and assert the superiority of your own opinion.....then you're really not much better than them.

Clear, concise, simply advice always rings thru. You need do nothing more then that.

[naeco81]

Yup I agree with that. For some personal context, I have purchased several upgrades for my own rifles - the things I feel make a bigger impact; stock, trigger, grips. Basically the points where you contact the weapon. You can find my recommendations for these in threads where people ask about the stuff, like "what stock do you recommend" for example. You're absolutely right that condescension works both ways though.

I think the best recommendation is what you closed with: clear, concise, simple advice. I'll add that usually it is best placed in response to a direct question.

[retiredAFcop]

This is not the problem.

Rather, my concern is with people who walk with a stiff upper lip because THEY have a tactical HK and battle-rated plate carrier, which means they're super duper prepared for All Which May Come, and the rest of us unwashed are mere serfs to their tactical prowess.

We have all types of "my way of gun ownership is better than yours" people/groups in the firearms community.

The "buy a shotgun, buy a double barrel shotgun" crowd.

The "You only need a hunting rifle or shotgun" crowd.

The "Get one gun, and become proficient with just that one gun" crowd.

The "You only need a handgun, because that's best for self defense" crowd.

The "military style tacti-cool" crowd.

The "SWAT style tacti-cool crowd".

The "cult of the 1911".

The "cult of the Glock".

The "cult of the AK".

The "cult of the AR".

etc.

We also have different uses for our firearms, including:

Self defense in the home (and proponents of pistols, shotguns, or carbines for it).

Self defense outside the home (and proponents of CCW, OCW, or just having the firearm somewhere accessible when you travel).

Competitive shooting (paper targets, action, trap, skeet, steel gongs, reactive targets, silhouettes, etc.).

Non-competitive/fun shooting (sometimes called "plinking").

"Training" for various SHTF scenarios that can go from temporary (a few minutes to hours) to short term (a few hours, days, or weeks), to long term (a few weeks up until forever).*

SHTF in ways that your military or LE organization did not give you enough training for, but that you have to respond to as a servicemember or cop.

SHTF Home defense.

SHTF local carry.

SHTF "bug out" carry.

SHTF long term prepping (local or offsite).

SHTF and need to be ready for "militia" purposes.


There are guys that will talk about how worthless anyone is that can't hit a bullseye target at 1,000 meters.
Others will tell you that what you need to focus on is reactive shooting with a handgun at ranges of 5 yards or less.
And there are many others in between.

*Please keep in mind that the SHTF scenario you plan for may be very different from the one I am planning for (Where I live, I feel the most likely "big" scenario is that an earthquake leaves me stranded in home for 3-15 days without water, electricity or EMS, while my most likely "small" scenario is that one of my substance abusing neighbors starts doing violent/destructive things in the street, and I have to control/restrain him until police arrive). "Gym membership" won't do much for me, due to my disability - that's one of the reasons I want "the great equalizer" to be in my "toolbox".

[jyo]

The photo of the grossly overweight fellow in full tactical gear reminds me of the fat (really fat) guy in the TV show (Doomsday Preppers?) wearing a brite-red shirt "clearing" his property while trying to give the impression that he is truly "dangerous" and should be feared. In reality, he is just a big fat red target who will be shot in the first few seconds of any shooting engagement.
Just look at the Korean fellows during the "Rodney King" riots doing a great job of defending their neighborhood and businesses in K-town. Wearing street clothes, using Mini 14s and other rifles they happened to own at the time.
Wearing full tactical gear and running around in a field doesn't make you battle-ready anymore than "Cowboy Action Shooting" makes you a real cowboy...

[DeeL2003]

"Tactical" is the new "Extreme" from the 90's. I think we need a new cool word to use. How about "Operable?"

[Happyhappycamper]

I was thinking more like "Black Ops Compatible"

[monk]

"Tactical" is the new "Extreme" from the 90's. I think we need a new cool word to use. How about "Operable?"

We need to use "slice the pie" more. I like pie.

[pc_load_letter]

"Tactical" is the new "Extreme" from the 90's. I think we need a new cool word to use. How about "Operable?"

Nice, how bout...

"Operator Certified"

[Untamed1972]

Wearing full tactical gear and running around in a field doesn't make you battle-ready anymore than "Cowboy Action Shooting" makes you a real cowboy...

Wait? What? LOL

[Untamed1972]

We need to use "slice the pie" more. I like pie.

MMMMMmmmmm......pie!

[Merovign]

Sounds like somebody wore white after labor day.