Imbert & Smithers: $50 PPT, Illegal?

[Sgt Raven]

Read the memo.
If I were an FFL and I posted storage is $10 per day after the initial 10 days, there's nothing illegal about that.
The fees are plainly posted.
Pickup your gun on the 10th day and there's no storage fee.
After that, the state no longer mandates what I could charge.
Say it's $10 per day and you come in 4 days later.
That's $40 please.

You can't claim ignorance either because it was posted.
You did not have to do the transfer at my hypothetical shop.
You could easily have driven another 1/2 hour (twice) to go somewhere else if you did not want to pay the $10 per day.
You coud just as easily shown up on the 10th day to pickup.
My safe space is at a premium so you gotta pay for the storage if you are too lazy/busy/whatever to pickup on the 10th day.

By law you have between '10' 24hr periods and '30' 24hr periods to pick it up. After 30 days, all bets are off.

[ar15barrels]

By law you have between '10' 24hr periods and '30' 24hr periods to pick it up. After 30 days, all bets are off.

But the law does not specifically protect you from storage fees after 10 days.
It only requires you to pickup before the DROS expires.
The law protects from additional charges for the specific transfer.
After the minimum transfer period is up, storage fees (when posted as required) are fair game.

[Sgt Raven]

But the law does not specifically protect you from storage fees after 10 days.
It only requires you to pickup before the DROS expires.
The law protects from additional charges for the specific transfer.
After the minimum transfer period is up, storage fees (when posted as required) are fair game.

Again call up Reed's and ask about adding extra fee's on a PPT.

[CavTrooper]

The $10 limit is for doing the paperwork.

Do you want your gun stored safely and securely during the 10 day wait?

Other fees could be charged for storage, climate control, security etc...
The DOJ does not say you can't charge $1.50 per day in storage fees.
10 day minimum storage is required for a $15 charge.

Storage is neither a sale, loan, or transfer.
I'm just saying...

Read the memo.
If I were an FFL and I posted storage is $10 per day after the initial 10 days, there's nothing illegal about that. (...snip)

But the law does not specifically protect you from storage fees after 10 days.
It only requires you to pickup before the DROS expires.
The law protects from additional charges for the specific transfer.
After the minimum transfer period is up, storage fees (when posted as required) are fair game.

Your original contention was that the dealer could charge a storage fee during the inital 10 days, now youve been shown where that is clearly against the rules and youre switching up your argument.
Integrity is admiting when youve made a mistake (and not trying to find ways to rip off the customer).

[Moonclip]

I'd not want to play the 10-30 day grey area game for a few bucks if I was a dealer. Anyways I usually do pick up in 10 days. And any dealer that did want to play that game with me would see little or no extra business from me as stated before.

[ar15barrels]

Your original contention was that the dealer could charge a storage fee during the inital 10 days, now youve been shown where that is clearly against the rules and youre switching up your argument.

Yep.
Keep teaching and I'll keep learning.

[ar15barrels]

Integrity is admiting when youve made a mistake (and not trying to find ways to rip off the customer).

I'm not trying to rip anyone off.
I'm not an FFL.
I'm just debating for the purpose of debating.

[CALI-gula]

But the law does not specifically protect you from storage fees after 10 days.
It only requires you to pickup before the DROS expires.
The law protects from additional charges for the specific transfer.
After the minimum transfer period is up, storage fees (when posted as required) are fair game.

Actually, it does. The pick-up is allowable within the 30 day period over 10 days, and any time during the DROS is considered to be part of the transfer, as the forced 10 day wait is just the EARLIEST allowed pick-up, but the DROS period of transfer is up to 30 days. True, you could mandate a charge for storage AFTER the 30 days, after the DROS expiration - just be sure to post a sign in your shop that you do (probably a good idea to include it on paperwork or receipts as well).

There's nothing wrong with being a Devil's advocate in a hypothetical world, but the real world has a funny way of creeping back in.

B&B Guns in North Hollywood was actually RAIDED by DOJ for this very exact reason - they were warned repeatedly to NOT charge for storage fees, which they were tacking on after the 10 days, just as you describe; when they failed to comply after numerous written warnings, DOJ came in with full force, B&B was shut-down for the day, they kicked out all of their customers - mid-sale or not - and aimed charges at them that they were holding purchaser's PPT guns and charging illegal fees, for the storage fees over the $10 (over the $35 PPT transfer).

By the way - the PDF of the DOJ bulletin I posted earlier in this thread was issued to dealers as a RESULT of B&B charging fees, and claiming it was OK.

Poor B&B. Money was lost. Sales were lost. Paying customers in the middle of a deal were kicked out of the store. Business interruption that insurance would not cover (due to civil authority/legal action). And B&B was forced to discontinue the practice of charging these storage fees under threat of having their license revoked anyway.

By the way.... B&B is no longer in business. At one time, that particular B&B was one of the largest gun stores in all of CA, with the highest annual sales of any single store, and were the very gun shop that North Hollywood police ran to during the Bank of America shoot-out to borrow AR15s.

You know what's there now? An Armenian delicatessen and food-mart.

.

[N6ATF]

Wow.

[MrLogan]

Actually, it does. The pick-up is allowable within the 30 day period over 10 days, and any time during the DROS is considered to be part of the transfer, as the forced 10 day wait is just the EARLIEST allowed pick-up, but the DROS period of transfer is up to 30 days. True, you could mandate a charge for storage AFTER the 30 days, after the DROS expiration - just be sure to post a sign in your shop that you do (probably a good idea to include it on paperwork or receipts as well).

There's nothing wrong with being a Devil's advocate in a hypothetical world, but the real world has a funny way of creeping back in.

B&B Guns in North Hollywood was actually RAIDED by DOJ for this very exact reason - they were warned repeatedly to NOT charge for storage fees, which they were tacking on after the 10 days, just as you describe; when they failed to comply after numerous written warnings, DOJ came in with full force, B&B was shut-down for the day, they kicked out all of their customers - mid-sale or not - and aimed charges at them that they were holding purchaser's PPT guns and charging illegal fees, for the storage fees over the $10 (over the $35 PPT transfer).

By the way - the PDF of the DOJ bulletin I posted earlier in this thread was issued to dealers as a RESULT of B&B charging fees, and claiming it was OK.

Poor B&B. Money was lost. Sales were lost. Paying customers in the middle of a deal were kicked out of the store. Business interruption that insurance would not cover (due to civil authority/legal action). And B&B was forced to discontinue the practice of charging these storage fees under threat of having their license revoked anyway.

By the way.... B&B is no longer in business. At one time, that particular B&B was one of the largest gun stores in all of CA, with the highest annual sales of any single store, and were the very gun shop that North Hollywood police ran to during the Bank of America shoot-out to borrow AR15s.

You know what's there now? An Armenian delicatessen and food-mart.

.

Sad to see any gunstore go under, but B&B got OWNED. Let that be a lesson.

[Ech0Sierra]

A thought ran through my mind. If B&B, the delicatessen, and Angeles shooting range were in the same spot, would you be covered?

[ar15barrels]

A thought ran through my mind. If B&B, the delicatessen, and Angeles shooting range were in the same spot, would you be covered?

I would setup camp there.

[Ech0Sierra]

I'd spend all of my vacation time there.

[1911_sfca]

Dealers that stick it to their customers deserve to go out of business. And when they are knowingly breaking the law, they also deserve to be criminally prosecuted and go out of business faster. Simple as that. See: Trader's Sports.

[Moonclip]

B&B Guns in North Hollywood was actually RAIDED by DOJ for this very exact reason - they were warned repeatedly to NOT charge for storage fees, which they were tacking on after the 10 days, just as you describe; when they failed to comply after numerous written warnings, DOJ came in with full force, B&B was shut-down for the day, they kicked out all of their customers - mid-sale or not - and aimed charges at them that they were holding purchaser's PPT guns and charging illegal fees, for the storage fees over the $10 (over the $35 PPT transfer).

By the way - the PDF of the DOJ bulletin I posted earlier in this thread was issued to dealers as a RESULT of B&B charging fees, and claiming it was OK.

Poor B&B. Money was lost. Sales were lost. Paying customers in the middle of a deal were kicked out of the store. Business interruption that insurance would not cover (due to civil authority/legal action). And B&B was forced to discontinue the practice of charging these storage fees under threat of having their license revoked anyway.

By the way.... B&B is no longer in business. At one time, that particular B&B was one of the largest gun stores in all of CA, with the highest annual sales of any single store, and were the very gun shop that North Hollywood police ran to during the Bank of America shoot-out to borrow AR15s.

You know what's there now? An Armenian delicatessen and food-mart.

.

I love shish kebab The Westminster location was raided also. I remember when they were also specifying only a very narrow time window where they would do PPT's during their business hours. Also a no no. I stopped doing business with B&B about 6months to a year before their demise due to employee attitues, I had bought around 20 firearms from them before this.

I miss their consignment case, but otherwise I could care less they went under. Poor business practices and some interfamily prolems didn't help either.