Imbert & Smithers: $50 PPT, Illegal?

[ar15barrels]

In addition, as you probably know

No I don't.

[John Browning]

Which case laws? I'd like to read up about this.

There are quite a few cases out there, but the only website I have a link to is password required so that won't help. I do believe there actually was one that was related to a gun held during a waiting period, but the general idea of a bailment is along these lines:

The general legal bailment is where you let someone else voluntarily or involuntarily physically possess your property for which you have a legal right to (clothes at a dry cleaner, car at a mechanic), but not to let the person taking it actually use it. Such would be the case when you let your local gun dealer hold onto your gun during a waiting period. The dealer has a duty of care to safely return the property that has been placed in his care. If the dealer is negligent in caring for the item they have in their physical possession, they are responsible for the damages that occur to it.

Telling someone that the item they have in bailment won't be cared for unless they pay $X is easy pickings in a civil case. Think of the injury to the public good if we allowed this, you could drop your BMW off to be serviced or your family photos to be restored, and the person holding them could call you up and tell you to fork over $1,000 or the car might get scratched or the photos burned. That is called extortion, and judges tend to look upon this in a very negative light. This would be a criminal act and could certainly result in an FFL losing the piece of paper that their livehood depends on.

So if a gun is ever damaged by a dealer during a wait or they try to extort some money out of you, it is good to remind them that is not worth the $10 or $20 extra.

[ar15barrels]

The general legal bailment is where you let someone else voluntarily or involuntarily physically possess your property for which you have a legal right to (clothes at a dry cleaner, car at a mechanic), but not to let the person taking it actually use it. Such would be the case when you let your local gun dealer hold onto your gun during a waiting period. The dealer has a duty of care to safely return the property that has been placed in his care. If the dealer is negligent in caring for the item they have in their physical possession, they are responsible for the damages that occur to it.

You need to get with Ben Cannon and help him work out the legal damages for his lowers that were seized by the DOJ and negligently cared for while in their possession.

[Trader Jack]

If the dealer doesn't store it safely during the 10 day wait, they can expect a visit from the ATF. What you are suggesting is total BS, the dealer is required by law to maintain absolute control of the firearms in their possession until it walks out the door with the buyer, and they cannot charge for this. They are allowed to charge $35, period. No extra fees, no requried extra purchases, and if they did try to do that they will be out of business quickly. In addition, they have responsibility for any damage to the item in their possession until it is picked up.

If a dealer did try to pull what you suggest, they'd have their FFL revoked in about the same amount of time it took me to write this, and rightfully so. What you suggest is criminal and could probably be favorably viewed in a small claims action as well.

If you don't follow ALL the laws, you shouldn't have an FFL.

There is a four letter word for your post and your full of it. It is you who does not the full extent of that law. Charges beyond the $35.00 CAN be assessed in a legal manner. Maybe if you don't know all the law, you should not be posting and telling others they should not have an FFL

[John Browning]

You need to get with Ben Cannon and help him work out the legal damages for his lowers that were seized by the DOJ and negligently cared for while in their possession.

Since I'm sure this is below the $5,000 limit, he could probably bring his own action in small claims court...of course going after a governmental agency can make things more interesting. He might get lucky and they don't show and he wins a quick judgment of $100 or whatever, DOJ might have heard all they want to hear about these lowers. I'm just glad they finally came back to their owners, but man, that was a long two weeks!

[John Browning]

There is a four letter word for your post and your full of it. It is you who does not the full extent of that law. Charges beyond the $35.00 CAN be assessed in a legal manner. Maybe if you don't know all the law, you should not be posting and telling others they should not have an FFL

The law is pretty plain on this one, so if I've missed something please point it out specifically rather than making a blanket statement that I'm full of it and not pointing out why.

The "total allowable fees" for a PPT are clearly listed. Please show me where in the memos, PC or communications from DOJ where it says you can legally charge what you want to charge or assess extra fees on a PPT. I'm sure DOJ would love to know more about dealers that found a way to charge more than the legally permissible $35.

I agree that there is a vaild argument to be made that $35 PPTs are a pain and could be more, but you'll notice nobody disagrees with the fact that $35 is the max you can charge for a PPT on a single firearm as it stands today. However, you can't just choose to do something else because you feel it is right.

BTW, I do know the law on this. As a law abiding gun owner who follows all the laws, even the ones I don't like, I'd have to say that we don't need FFLs in the gun business who don't follow the law as it is plainly stated, "the total allowable fees, including the DROS, safety, and dealer transfer fees, are not to exceed $35.00" on the first firearm to be transferred. This isn't a cloudy section of the PC, it is clear as crystal and willful breaking of any law they make the entire gun owning community look bad and put our already limited freedoms in greater jeopardy.

[avidone]

There is a local dealer who told me that nothing in the prohibits him from charging me a storage fee during the ten day wait on top of the $35.00 PPT fee. Is that true? This same dealer tried to charge me a $100.00 gun handling fee on top of the $35.00 PPT fee during a FTF PPT a while ago, but then recently conceded that it would have been illegal.

[Moonclip]

When I look at the last 12 PPT transactions (and a couple out-of-state purchase incomings) I have made, either buying or selling, I ALSO ended up buying a firearm (new or consignment) from the dealer doing the PPT.

In some cases, I instead bought about $150 worth of other items, such as ammo or supplies. In all cases, I figured I was there, they had what I wanted, I was coming back anyway (or I just scored some cash in the case of a sale) etc., and it was 2 birds (or guns) with one stone. Yes, I do chose to only do PPTs and out-of-state transfers with dealers doing $35 PPTs or having fair prices on out-of-state transfers. They get my money - and I am sure to be a repeat customer.

For those gun dealers that might dick around and charge $50 for a PPT? Penny wise and POUNDS... MANY POUNDS... foolish. Let that be a lesson. If I am forced to use you because it is the seller's preference and I don't want to incovenience the seller out of my good manners (and that has happened) it will be that one time only, to appease the seller, and you aren't getting a single extraneous purchase from me; and in all, I can guarantee it would have been worth your while to follow the law, as well as have me as an on-going customer. High-income, no kids, no car payments, very little debt of any kind, ditched the wife without having to give her a dime, and have a love for high-end and blue-chip collectible firearms. Don't be stupid.

Oh... and... see below:

The PDF DOJ Bulletin on PPT fees, direct from the DOJ website:

http://www.caag.state.ca.us/firearms/infobuls/0101.pdf

http://www.caag.state.ca.us/firearms/dlrfaqs.htm#18G

.

VERY well put, my feelings exactly. Though I'm not a "baller/highroller/whale" like you Almost all my spare income and sometimes more is spent on the shooting sports. And I have a family member that is a semi high roller with no kids or rent or wife that is heavily into guns as well whom I influence greatly on what and where to buy.

I think most people doing PPTs or out of state transfers are more into buying guns than the general public. FFLs should think about this.

Last time I did a PPT with a calguns member I believe he purchased a Yugo SKS as well. The guy, a family friend I just gave as an Xmas present a handgun to where we just PPTed the gun yesterday at Ammo Bros, expressed interest in buying a shotgun possibly.

He is a novice to this, I told him in no uncertain terms DO NOT buy it from the dealer that tried the $50 PPT. This guy is a high roller too, he recently bought a $1000 Stetson and we went and bought a $10000 ATV after we did the PPT at Ammo Bros so guess where this guys future gun purchases will be made.

[Sgt Raven]

There is a four letter word for your post and your full of it. It is you who does not the full extent of that law. Charges beyond the $35.00 CAN be assessed in a legal manner. Maybe if you don't know all the law, you should not be posting and telling others they should not have an FFL

Maybe you should call up Reed's and ask them about that, they got jacked up by the DOJ for charging more than the law allowed on PPTs. Now they charge $35.00. I think that's the reason they shied away from the whole OLL thing, they were afraid of getting jack up by DOJ again.

[CavTrooper]

12082.(a)
...The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee.

(d) A violation of this section by a dealer is a misdemeanor.

[ar15barrels]

12082.(a)
...The purchaser or transferee or person being loaned the firearm may be required by the dealer to pay a fee not to exceed ten dollars ($10) per firearm, and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section, except for the applicable fee that the Department of Justice may charge pursuant to Section 12076. Nothing in these provisions shall prevent a dealer from charging a smaller fee.

Storage is neither a sale, loan, or transfer.
I'm just saying...

[CavTrooper]

Storage is neither a sale, loan, or transfer.
I'm just saying...

I would argue that the "storage" IS part of the sale or transfer since I cannot simply take the rifle home after completeing the paperwork, the "sale or transfer" not being complete until the end of the 10 day waiting period.
But hey, a dealer can charge whatever they want, hopefully enough people will realize they are being ripped off and stop doing buisness with them and the dealer will go under before they have to argue the "storage fees" vs transfer fees in court.

[Sgt Raven]

Storage is neither a sale, loan, or transfer.
I'm just saying...

Did you just gloss over this part? "and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section" The PPT is a 'transfer'.

[Sgt Raven]

Storage is neither a sale, loan, or transfer.
I'm just saying...

Once again tell that to Reed's Sporting Goods in San Jose, DOJ jacked them up real good on charging over the limit on PPTs.

[ar15barrels]

Did you just gloss over this part? "and no other fee may be charged by the dealer for a sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm conducted pursuant to this section" The PPT is a 'transfer'.

Read the memo.
If I were an FFL and I posted storage is $10 per day after the initial 10 days, there's nothing illegal about that.
The fees are plainly posted.
Pickup your gun on the 10th day and there's no storage fee.
After that, the state no longer mandates what I could charge.
Say it's $10 per day and you come in 4 days later.
That's $40 please.

You can't claim ignorance either because it was posted.
You did not have to do the transfer at my hypothetical shop.
You could easily have driven another 1/2 hour (twice) to go somewhere else if you did not want to pay the $10 per day.
You coud just as easily shown up on the 10th day to pickup.
My safe space is at a premium so you gotta pay for the storage if you are too lazy/busy/whatever to pickup on the 10th day.