Cal15-bs interest?

[JTROKS]

Ok do it with a 10 round mag installed. If you remove the mag you just used a tool.

[unusedusername]

I might be wrong here, so I've asked a few others for advice.

Nothing in the PC says you have to start with the lower with a magazine in it. My understanding is that if you can get a magazine to come out without a tool then you are in trouble.

Again, I could be wrong. (I kind of hope I'm wrong actually as this is a awesome product)

We will see what others think later on.

[JTROKS]

Is there something in the PC that says you cannot start with a magazine installed if it's meant to be fixed?

Unusedusername, Here's the video



See how you can't remove the 10 round magazine that is in place when the cap is installed?

Now you'll see a tool being used to remove the magazine = Tool used, it's just like any other bullet button.

Now the part where I removed the cap off. If you look closely the pistol grip is removed from my Stag 6, basically a featureless once the pistol grip is removed and no, I didn't have to go out of state. I just followed the chart above. Wow! This feature can be used for featureless and 22 LR as you mentioned.

Now if you want to go back to an OLL build with features, install a 10 round magazine permanently by using the CAL15-BS or any of the available bullet button and feel safe that it won't come off unless you use a tool. Remember you use a tool to remove the magazine, that process is legal. In the video a mag is permanently installed in the first place which prevents anyone installing a magazine capable of holding more than 10 rounds thus - instant AW

Use a tool to remove the mag = legal.

Are we sure now or are we still thinking we might be wrong?

[JTROKS]

To anyone that just read my post. I apologize if it sounded condescending or negative in anyway for that is not what it's meant for. It is informative for what the product is designed to do and I'm not targeting unusedusername, but simply replying to his posts.

[svftbss]

is there a list for people that missed out and want to buy one?

[JTROKS]

There is a list, but I'm just trying to make sure all that signed up and committed to it are covered first. But 8 May its open sale here and out there. I did this due to numerous requests and at that price it really is just a favor. Plus I needed some for a couple of builds for I'm too lazy and don't have time to sit and machine them myself.

[unusedusername]

So JTROCKS I am still worried.

I do have 3 of these buttons and I spent several hours yesterday playing with one on my own lower.

The issue is that there exists a way to make the magazine removable without a tool.

The PC does not say that you have to start with a magazine in the magwell. In fact the PC does not say you have to have a magazine in it at all, this is why our ARs are not suddenly illegal as soon as we remove the magazine.

Copied from the calguns flowchart:
My understanding is that "capacity to accept" has been interpreted to mean that if there is any way to make the magazine removable without a tool then you are in felony-land. The key word is any.

I agree that while in normal operation a tool is needed, but since I can come up with a method to remove it without a tool then technically I could always use that method that does not require a tool.

Since a method exists then there is a problem.

If I take a normal bullet button, or a raddlock there is no amount of fumbling around I can do with the rifle to get the button to come off.

With these buttons, I need a tool to make the magazine come out. I could use my tool to push the release in the bullet button, or I could use my tool to remove the bullet button itself (which would also get the magazine to come out), but in no way can I get the magazine to come out without a tool.

If I have a bullet-button(tm) or a raddlock and start with the rifle without a magazine in it, same thing. I can't make it go to a mode where it will allow me to remove the magazine without using a tool, (which in this case would be to remove the bullet button itself).

With this button I can start with a rifle with a magazine in it, and I agree that in that case you need a tool.

If I start with a rifle without a magazine in it, which is also a legal configuration, then I can get a magazine to come out without using a tool.

That last part is the issue.

The bullet button has to work both with the magazine installed, and with it not installed.

Sorry for the wall-o-text here but that is what I'm worried about.

I can make a video tonight after I get off work demonstrating this issue since it seems to be needed.

[bombadillo]

Got my 2 YESTERDAY! These things are almost better than the first batch. Thanks again.

[RandyD]

My two units arrived in today's mail. Thanks

[Burbur]

This thread has an eerie lack of contribution from those who normally post on topics of grey area.

I tried to duplicate the process unusedusername described and was able to remove the cap too. I was left with a non-fixed magazine .22 rimfire and it didn't take a tool to get there.

I came across another disconcerting issue this morning while using the device in CA Compliant mode. The cap is not held in place by any detent mechanism, meaning it is free to float along the dovetail. Normally, the button holds the cap, but when performing magazine changes, the cap had a propensity to slide off center ever so slightly. This left me with a magazine catch that didn't catch and a cap that can very easily slide off, leaving my rifle configured in a detachable magazine state. My mind quickly raced to a scenario where I'm at the range and this piece falls off and rolls away, never to be seen again. So I took another piece of tape and semi-permanently joined the cap to the body, to prevent this.

I thought other people had used the Cal-15BS before. I would have thought these type of issues would have been vetted in the first generation. Where are the other voices? A lot of people should have this in hand to evaluate, what say you?

I may be putting these in my parts bin. I will definitely use them when/where I don't need a fixed magazine and like unusedusername stated, I too am happy to support grass-roots innovation, even if it doesn't achieve the result I desired.

YMMV and I would like to hear that I was doing something wrong.

[unusedusername]

To put my concern into a simpler term:

If you agree with me that a semiautomatic rifle still meets the definition of a semiautomatic rifle under CA law without a magazine in it, then this magazine lock has a problem because I can give a semiautomatic rifle without a magazine in it the capacity to accept a detachable magazine without using a tool.

I've PMed bwiese and hoffmang asking if they have an opinion on the subject, but since they have not ordered these bullet buttons themselves they are unlikely to weigh in until they see it. I can arrange sending them one since I have 3.

[JTROKS]

It is designed to keep a legal capacity magazine in place until you use the tool to remove the mag to be replaced with another legal capacity mag. Do you agree that it keeps the legal capacity magazine in place and prevents it from being detached from the firearm with a simple push of your finger? The tool that it comes with (optional for addtl. $2.50) has one end longer than the other. The short end is used to quickly remove the mag to be replaced with another legal capacity mag. The longer end of the tool is designed to remove the cap for a quick transition to, "Featureless OLL build" or 22lr configuration. If you insist doing it your way in leaving the magazine out then the, "FIXED Magazine" is not there anymore due to the owner/operator's own doing. Traditional bullet button or Raddlock may be better for you. I'm gonna post it again - The design is to have a fix mounted legal capacity magazine in place, in the event that legal capacity magazine requires replacing the user can use the specifically designed tool to remove (short end) the installed mag then replaced with another legal capacity mag. That is one process using a tool. It is written on the instructions that the owner/user is responsible for keeping their rifles compliant with state and federal laws. So if you insist in circumventing the design then our correspondence here has failed.

Burbur: the button is the detent in keeping the cap in place. The short end of the tool will push the button just enough to remove the magazine. Please insure you replace it with another legal capacity magazine to complete the fixed magazine design. Did you order the tool? The instructions mentioned in taking care when using a tool not specifically designed for the CAL15-BS. If you watch the video there is no tape used around the cap to keep it in place when removing mag for the purpose of replacing it with another legal capaucity magazine. If an appropriate legal magazine is mounted then you won't be having the same problem as unusedusername keeps having.

[JTROKS]

A semi auto without a magazine will be functioning as a single shot. Do you agree to that?

unusedusername, To make it simpler, semi automatic pistols that are being DROSed as a single shot have their magazines replaced with a sled mounted and a MAG LOCK in lieu of a regular mag. So simply put I don't agree with you on that.

[unusedusername]

A semi auto without a magazine will be functioning as a single shot. Do you agree to that?

unusedusername, To make it simpler, semi automatic pistols that are being DROSed have their magazines replaced with a sled mounted and a MAG LOCK in lieu of a regular mag. So simply put I don't agree with you on that.

I believe that a semi-auto without a magazine is still a semi-auto.

The basis of my argument is that you can posses a semi-auto firearm for which you own no magazines and no magazine blockers, and still have a semi-auto firearm.

The other point of my argument is based on the interpretation that a disassembled AW (meaning no magazine in magwell) is still an AW. This could not be true if a disassembled AW was a single shot rifle.

This bullet button is probably legal if you top-load your rifle and never remove the magazine.

As soon as the magazine is removed (even only for an instant, like during a magazine change) it is possible to make the rifle take a magazine and then remove it without using a tool, triggering in my opinion AW status. (And remember that I am not a lawyer, so there is a distinct possibility that I am wrong.)

EDIT TO ADD: I am not using the old "you gotta top load ARs" argument here, the regular bullet button does not have this weakness and magazines can be changed legally on those designs. The problem with this design is that as soon as I have a semi-auto AR with no magazine in it I can make it have a regular magazine button with no tool.



This is the same as the age-old argument as to if a semi-auto rifle without a magazine retention system at all could still be an AW (it can).

We can disagree and still be friendly though

This can probably be fixed by putting a small dowel through the removable top cap, making it require a punch (tool) to remove the cap and fixing the issue completely.

As far as SSE conversions go, it is no longer considered a single-shot as soon as the fixed magazine is removed. Note that I believe (but can not prove with citations) that it is semi-auto after the 0-round sled is removed, and before after a more then 0-round magazine is installed.

Converting a single-shot to a semi-auto is legal for handguns after they are transferred and it is the key as to why a SSE can really work.

I think I'm not going to post any more on this subject for the next few days and see what others think. I am not a lawyer. These are just my opinions and I am frequently wrong.

[Burbur]

Yes, I did get the tool you offered and when used as instructed, it pushes the release the perfect depth and there is no issue of the cap dislodging from the button. When using a bullet, you have to pay attention to what you are doing.

My neighbor came over and we discussed one possible solution (to both issues), a set screw. I know it is counter intuitive to the concept, and there is very limited working area to drill and tap, but I will report back after consulting with another neighbor (and his mini mill)