Punisher emblems on firearms?

[jaymz]

If it's a good shoot, you'll never be in front of a jury for a criminal trial. Use whatever you like.

[Saym14]

Or? hers something a little more user friendly







What ever works for you and makes you happy..

Have a great one

Link

Just hope the burglur you shoot isnt Japanese.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Just hope the burglur you shoot isnt Japanese.

It wouldn't be the first Japanese to crash and burn from the barrel of a Flying Tiger!

[fiddletown]

...Since our justice system is made up of humans, theres undoubtedly a human/psychological factor involved. ...

Which is one consideration in the art of trial advocacy.

...There are examples of how juries view race, wealth, and other factors, and there are examples of how verdicts have been altered as a result. There is no such example for this and thats why its irresponsible for people to insist its an epidemic...

And indeed there are examples of extraneous matters influencing juries. And perhaps, no one who as used a Punisher skull adorned gun has as yet come before a jury. Can you call our attention to any such case? And please show us where anyone has insisted that this is an epidemic.

......Fish has been hashed out here before and its not really indicative of anything other than the fact that if you shoot an unarmed man in public and then offer different versions of events you're going to land in court. And despite all of that, Fish was ultimately not convicted...

[1] The Fish case is also an example of an extraneous issue, ammunition choice, influencing a jury.

[2] And Fish was in fact convicted. His conviction was overturned on appeal, and a new trial ordered. The DA elected instead to dismiss the charge.

......Furthermore, as one of those attorneys who has participated in those post verdict interviews, I'm very much aware of juror perceptions. And contrary to what has been asserted here its my personal belief that it would actually be advantageous to defense counsel if some DA decided to go down the road of "this evil guy use xy & z to kill the rapist" because there are countless ways to make said DA look foolish....

Except that is not something that can be stated categorically.

In any particular case, the prosecutor must evaluate the circumstances and also the make up of the jury and decide whether or how to raise certain points. The defense of course must try to anticipate the prosecutor's strategy and, in light of the defense's assessment of the circumstances and the make up of the jury, decide how to blunt the prosecutor's attack. Who chose most wisely will come out in the verdict.

Of course if the defendant hadn't chosen to have a gun with a Punisher skull on it, that wouldn't be a possible issue for the prosecutor to raise; nor would it be an issue that the defense would need to consider dealing with.

...BTW: It would have been far more honest of you to disclose the fact that you were a member of the "Massad Ayoob Group" in our various discussions about these issues. At least other readers would be able to have a more informed judgment about your opinions on these various things, if not explain your voracious defense of the man and his positions.

And now you resort to misrepresentation in an effort to discredit me.

[1] So far, Massad Ayoob has not figured in this discussion, except in the form of your snarky and insulting references to him.

[2] Do you have any evidence that I am "a member of the Massad Ayoob Group"? In fact, I have no formal affiliation with the Massad Ayoob Group and am not listed on his website as one of his training associates.

[3] I've made no secret of the fact that I've acted as an assistant instructor in one of his classes. See --

• This post of 7 September 2010:

  ...Having taken LFI-I with Massad Ayoob, spending time with him and helping with a class of his in Sierra Vista, AZ not too long ago,...

• This post of 16 September 2010:

  ...I took his LFI-1 class in October of 2008, ...
  
  Last May,I also helped out at his MAG40 class in Sierra Vista, Arizona....

• This post of 10 April 2011:

  ...Massad Ayoob's classes are especially useful in this regard. (I've taken LFI-I and also helped him with a MAG40 class last year in Arizona)....

• This post of 10 July 2011:

  ...A year ago last May, I was helping with a class put on by Massad Ayoob in Sierra Vista, Arizona....

• This post of 20 August 2011:

  ...having taken LFI-I with Massad Ayoob, spending time with him and helping with a class of his in Sierra Vista, AZ not too long ago,...

[4] I've never received any compensation from Massad Ayoob, nor in fact for any of my teaching (including the monthly Basic Handgun classes that I and several other put on). I teach because I learn by doing so, and I enjoy it.

If it's a good shoot, you'll never be in front of a jury for a criminal trial....

Of course, you're not the one who has the final say. The DA and/or grand jury might disagree with you.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Of course, you're not the one who has the final say. The DA and/or grand jury might disagree with you.

And they might not. The sky is falling.

[lear60man]

Never buy jewelry for a woman without her input, its way too personal. Guns are our jewelry. I have bought/made specific guns because they give me the warm fuzzies and I could care less what others think. But judging on comments that I get when I open up my range bag, folks are happy with my movie guns. My AR is black and polished stainless with red lettering. ZEDU lower and Umbrella Corp logos. Clean upscale zombie eliminator. I could give a hoot what a jury might think as its not the gun I would defend our lives with in a SHTF scenario. Unless its Zombies.

[JeffM]

I'm good then

^F*ck yea!

Punisher skulls etc are stupid in and of themselves.

There are a few ideas I have for logos/designs on my guns but it's not moronic overdone gun makeup like pirates/zombies sh*t.

Right now the only markings on my guns are required by the ATF... and scars from use.

[fiddletown]

And they might not. The sky is falling.

No, the sky is not falling. But there is no way that any of us can know ahead of time whether, if we decide we need to use force in self defense, our actions will immediately be accepted as justified or we will have to enter the meat-grinder that is the criminal justice system and establish, at potentially great expense and under a lot of stress, that we were justified.

I suspect that most defensive gun uses are quickly resolved at the preliminary investigation stage. However, there have been cases like those of --

This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oaklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

[sl4ck3r]

Everyone likes to personalize their stuff. I see it as a form of self expression. People express themselves differently. If they want Punisher emblems, go for it. I think it has very little do with foresight.

No, the sky is not falling. But there is no way that any of us can know ahead of time whether, if we decide we need to use force in self defense, our actions will immediately be accepted as justified or we will have to enter the meat-grinder that is the criminal justice system and establish, at potentially great expense and under a lot of stress, that we were justified.

I suspect that most defensive gun uses are quickly resolved at the preliminary investigation stage. However, there have been cases like those of --

This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oaklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

What do these have to do with adorning your gun with random ****? To me, if anything you're proving percent's and stage's point. There is no telling what will happen and to think that by not adorning your firearm with Punisher imagery you're giving yourself a better chance in court is ridiculous. There are strange cases, but like they have pointed out; nothing remotely concrete. This means you're spreading FUD imo. The argument you're using is it could happen. Yes, people are unpredictable sometimes and we all know it. A vast number of things are in the realm of possibilities, and yet many of these things never happen.

[BT JUSTICE]

I always thought about putting "Smoke Wagon" on my duty use Para grips. I guess it'd be fun for the looks and snickers at Starbucks, but probly not so fun explaining it to the Chief when he gets the call from a hoplophobic citizen. Although, nothing in policy says I can't do it...

[fiddletown]

Everyone likes to personalize their stuff. I see it as a form of self expression. People express themselves differently. If they want Punisher emblems, go for it. I think it has very little do with foresight.

You are, of course, free to express yourself as you wish, by your speech, by your actions, by your dress or by the ways in which you choose to embellish your personal weapons; but does not mean that doing so is without social consequences.

You may be free to express yourself, but others are free to either pay attention or not. And others are also free to form opinions about you, your character, values, or beliefs based on how you express yourself and what you express.

So if you choose to walk down the street wearing a t-shirt emblazoned with a swastika, you really can't complain if folks who see you figure that you have Nazi sympathies. And if you wear a t-shirt or embellish your personal weapon with a Punisher skull or Batman symbol or something glorifying the Boondock Saints, you shouldn't be surprised if at least some folks don't at least wonder if you admire, or even identify with, vigilantes.

Now it's one thing if you risk creating that impression when you drop into the convenience store to buy a diet cola. But it's another thing to risk creating that impression when you might need to explain what happened when you were attacked, and it's now very important that people believe your claim that you reasonably believed that you had no alternative but to use lethal force in self defense.

In the latter situation, you have no way of knowing whether, or how much, your "self expression" could hurt you.

How you present yourself to the world is up to you. But you can't complain when people form impressions of you or make judgments about you based on the way you do present yourself to the world.

...The argument you're using is it could happen. Yes, people are unpredictable sometimes and we all know it. ...

And that's the point. It's a risk. What's the downside? The downside is perhaps a tougher, more expensive and more unpredictable time if one is unlucky enough to find himself in court. What's the upside? The upside is whatever satisfaction you get by way of your particular self expression. You decide for yourself if the upside is worth the downside.

But I know that having a gun without some comic book hero decoration isn't going to impair my ability to defend myself if need be.

[GettoPhilosopher]

I suspect that most defensive gun uses are quickly resolved at the preliminary investigation stage. However, there have been cases like those of --

This couple, arrested in early April and finally exonerated under Missouri's Castle Doctrine in early June. And no doubt after incurring expenses for bail and a lawyer, as well as a couple of month's anxiety, before being cleared.

Larry Hickey, in gun friendly Arizona: He was arrested, spent 71 days in jail, went through two different trials ending in hung juries, was forced to move from his house, etc., before the DA decided it was a good shoot and dismissed the charges.

Mark Abshire in Oaklahoma: Despite defending himself against multiple attackers on his own lawn in a fairly gun-friendly state with a "Stand Your Ground" law, he was arrested, went to jail, charged, lost his job and his house, and spent two and a half years in the legal grinder before finally being acquitted.

Harold Fish, also in gun friendly Arizona: He was still convicted and sent to prison. He won his appeal, his conviction was overturned, and a new trial was ordered. The DA chose to dismiss the charges rather than retry Mr. Fish.

Gerald Ung: He was attacked by several men, and the attack was captured on video. He was nonetheless charged and brought to trial. He was ultimately acquitted.

I think these cases prove TenPercent's point though; of course the prosecution will hunt for anything they can. They'll throw whatever they can find at the wall and see what sticks. But all these cases are examples of what would appear to a non-gunny to be dirty shoots. So why are we debating Punisher grips? It's obvious that a much more productive and worthwhile discussion would be disparity of force cases where it's gun v. fists/rock/bat/etc.

These cases were screwed up because in all of them, someone shot an unarmed attacker, and in this culture....very few people in very few situations will view a shoot of an unarmed person as justified, no matter the circumstances. It's screwed up, but it's true. It's also much more relevant than whether my grips will get me convicted.

[fiddletown]

...But all these cases are examples of what would appear to a non-gunny to be dirty shoots. So why are we debating Punisher grips? It's obvious that a much more productive and worthwhile discussion would be disparity of force cases where it's gun v. fists/rock/bat/etc.

These cases were screwed up because in all of them, someone shot an unarmed attacker, and in this culture....very few people in very few situations will view a shoot of an unarmed person as justified, no matter the circumstances. It's screwed up, but it's true. It's also much more relevant than whether my grips will get me convicted.

Yes, these were all disparity of force cases. But how can you know that the time you might be forced to defend your life, or the life of a loved one, won't also be a disparity of force case -- or some other type of situation that would appear to a non-gunny as a dirty shoot? Such situations do happen.

The fact that your particular use of lethal force may have been such that it does not immediately appear that you were justified will not change the fact that you indeed might really have had no choice. But now you must convince a skeptical prosecutor and/or jury of that. Do you really think that your Punisher skull grips will be a help to you?

We all like to imagine that when our "moment of truth" comes it will be obvious to all that we are the "good guy." But the cases I noted demonstrate that need not always be the case.

We had some good folks in clear jeopardy and with no way to preserve their lives except by the use of lethal force against other humans. Yet that happened under circumstances in which their justification for the use of lethal force was not immediately clear. And perhaps there but for the grace of God will go one of us.

[STAGE 2]

And indeed there are examples of extraneous matters influencing juries. And perhaps, no one who as used a Punisher skull adorned gun has as yet come before a jury. Can you call our attention to any such case? And please show us where anyone has insisted that this is an epidemic.

Granted epidemic might be verging on hyperbole, but it is enough of an issue that it has filled the pages of many a gun rag. If someone is going to admonish others or insist that they curtail their actions they they have the burden of proof. No such proof has been provided.

In that vein I submit that the very fact that you have to delve in to psychology rather than legal precedent illustrates that there isn't any factual legal support for the notion that having something engraved on your firearm will cause you to be convicted of an otherwise good shoot.

And now you resort to misrepresentation in an effort to discredit me.

[2] Do you have any evidence that I am "a member of the Massad Ayoob Group"? In fact, I have no formal affiliation with the Massad Ayoob Group and am not listed on his website as one of his training associates.

Two points. First I haven't misrepresented anything. Your online CV has you listed as a member of the "Massad Ayoob Group". Unless someone has hacked your profile I can only assume you stated that yourself.

Second, why would pointing out your affiliation with him be discrediting if you adhere to his opinions as you clearly do?

[STAGE 2]

We all like to imagine that when our "moment of truth" comes it will be obvious to all that we are the "good guy." But the cases I noted demonstrate that need not always be the case. .

And yet despite all of your protestations I bet you still use HP ammo in your defensive gun even though that juror was fixated on how those evil bullets were designed to tear flesh.