Frontsight -"Guaranteed Lowest Price Ever" -WRONG!

[Front Runner]

Zombie Tactics... apology accepted. It is apparent you are unclear of the situation here.
To stop making the payments was the suggestion of the salesman on the phone at Frontsight. They gave me 3 options:
1. Keep making the payments as is (and pretend the lowest offer...ever was not part of the advertisement.
2. Pay $1995 x 2 and they keep the $3000 already paid.
3. Turn in the Diamond memberships, they keep the $3000 and I keep the (2) $419 memberships.
I chose the option best for me.
There is a difference between an ad saying memberships $2995 vs one that says $2995 and "lowest price...ever guarantee.
When the price of the Diamond membership dropped to $1995 and credit given for the $419 I called them. It was clear that they were not going to honor the lowest price guarantee, and because of that they gave me the 3 options listed above.

[Front Runner]

June 10, 2010
Dr. Ignatius Piazza
Founder and Director

https://www.frontsight.com

Dear First Family Member,

WARNING: If you are waiting for me to offer you a
less expensive opportunity to secure an All-Inclusive
Diamond Lifetime Membership for yourself AND to allow
you to sell or transfer your current membership to a
friend or family member, then you better jump on this
because I guarantee you that you will not be offered
this again...EVER!

WHY?

Because I am on the verge of making a huge announcement
that is the culmination of several years of hard work and
preparation, launching Front Sight into a new era of growth,
expansion and prosperity not previously experienced.

As such, there will not be any special offers provided after
this announcement, so if you have been waiting for "a better
deal" or "prices to drop" on an All-Inclusive Diamond
Lifetime Membership, it isn't going to happen.

In fact, you should have noticed that the recent $5,900
Diamond With Guns was an increase over last year's offer, as
was the $4,900 Diamond Without Guns. Both of which are gone
forever.

And the $1,995 Diamond offer that had no bonuses whatsoever
will never be seen again.

I also just increased the price 30% on the Greatest Course,
Gun and Gear Offer for new students.

So if you waited, hoping for a better deal, you waited to
long.

Everything is going up.

Please don't be upset with me. I sent you letters, post
cards, e-mails, and even left phone messages trying my best
to encourage you to take advantage of an All-Inclusive
Diamond Lifetime Membership because I really want you to be
a top level, Diamond Member and I want you to go out and
transfer your old membership to a new member to help us
double our influence and positively change the image of gun
ownership even faster!

SO HERE IS YOUR LAST CHANCE to get an All-Inclusive Diamond
Membership with NO Bonuses other than the ability to
transfer your current membership to anyone you wish, at the
lowest price you will ever see it offered... ever!

And quite frankly you may never see another Diamond
Membership offer again at any price!

You have until Sunday, June 13 at 6:00pm PST to take
advantage of this, your last chance at an All-Inclusive
Diamond Lifetime Membership.

Secure your All-Inclusive Diamond Lifetime Membership,
if at all possible.

Here it is...

This is only for Front Sight Lifetime Members and will
be sold out by Sunday, June 13 at 6:00pm PST.

Take advantage of this amazing offer...

Become an All-Inclusive Diamond Lifetime Member

. ATTEND ANY COURSE (over 50 courses offered!) HELD AT FRONT
SIGHT FREE OF CHARGE AND AS MANY TIMES AS YOU WISH FOR THE
REST OF YOUR LIFE.
. Attend Annual, Two-Day Secrets of the Ultra Successful
Event Free of Charge
. Guaranteed Placement in any course with two weeks
advance enrollment.
. 40% Savings On Any Products Purchased from Pro Shop,
Gunsmith, and Armory.
. Free Use of Front Sight's Private First Family Ranges.
. Free Locker Rental in Front Sight's Armory.
. Invitation to annual July 4th Lifetime Members'
Reunion Celebration.
. Name etched in First Family Monument.
. Password to access exclusive and restricted First
Family areas of web site and e-mail forum.
. First Family Card and First Family Hat.

Plus the following Bonus:

Your old membership converted to "To Be Determined" so
you can sell, transfer or gift to anyone I wish without
a transfer fee. (The only restriction is you cannot
advertise membership in any public media.)

Choose ONE Payment Plan:

____ 90 monthly credit card payments of $69 for a
total cost of $6,210.

____ 36 monthly credit card payments of $129 for a
total cost of $4,644 (You Save $1,566)

_____ Single payment of $2,900 (You Save $3,310!)

Name: ___________________________________________

Old Membership #___________________

Address: ________________________________________

City: ___________________________________________

State: ______________ Zip Code: _________________

Phone: ___________________________________

Credit Card Number: ______________________________

Expires: __________
(VISA, MasterCard, Discover, American Express or a
combination of cards for the single payment)

Signature: __________________________________________

Date: _______________


Call Jim, Joey, Ian, or Jon at 1.800.987.7719 between the
hours of 8:30am and 5:30pm PST, to get your Diamond
Membership before it is gone forever!

You have until Sunday, June 13 at 6:00pm PST to take
advantage of this, your last chance at an All-Inclusive
Diamond Lifetime Membership.

If after hours, Fax Immediately to 831.684.2137 and your fax
will be counted in the order received.

If paying by check, mail TODAY to:
PO Box 2619, Aptos CA 95001

Sincerely,

Dr. Ignatius Piazza
Founder and Director
Front Sight Firearms Training Institute
P. O. Box 2619
Aptos, CA 95001

http://www.frontsight.com

[Briancnelson]

Ok, time for the defenders of Frontsight to put up or shut up, there's the offer.

Looks like false advertising to me.

The training may or may not be any good, but that's just hucksterism at it's finest there. He should teach THAT to people, it's clear he has talent for it.

I can, have and do buy my training elsewhere, because the marketing on this place reminds me of the story we did on timeshare scams when I was a reporter. Even if the training is only of the finest quality, I'd feel like somehow I was getting screwed.

[AngelDecoys]

Ok, time for the defenders of Frontsight to put up or shut up, there's the offer.

This is not the initial offer the OP bought. From his 1st post.

I had 2 memberships that included 4 day pistol and rifle when I get an ad saying Diamond Membership $2995 "lowest price you will ever see it offered...ever!"

June 10, 2010
........ then you better jump on this because I guarantee you that you will not be offered this again...EVER!

.......

And the $1,995 Diamond offer that had no bonuses whatsoever
will never be seen again.

What the OP just posted is a subsequent offer as in you will not see this $1,995 again. Since Diamonds and Silver and a few others are no longer being offered, its probably safe to say that guarantee has been met. I don't read anything here that alludes to renegotiating a previous offer already accepted ($2995). Do you? The OP was guaranteed the price on the offer he initially accepted. Nothing more.

Its been a very long time since I bought a membership; before one could do so online. But if i recall FS does note no refunds once one gets to the payment page. If he called and got something else; great for him. If the offer he initially accepted was worded differently, he can post it.

[ZombieTactics]

It's amazing to note how the story of the OP keeps shifting and changing ... but somehow it's all the fault of Front Sight. It occurs to me that he is simply confused.

[Front Runner]

I initially purchased (2) "Dont Tread on Me" memberships in early 2010. 2 and 4 day rifle and pistol classes. Went to a 4 day pistol class in May 2010, liked it. Then I received the June 10, 2010 ad. Saw last chance for Diamond, lowest price, may never see Diamond memberships again at any price, if you have waited for a better deal you have waited to long, blah, blah... so I bought in.
Read the ad it says AND transfer your current membership. You are correct the 2 Diamonds are not by initial membership. How could I transfer my current membership if this is my initial membership? (It is hard to understand the point of your last post, but I think this is part of what you were getting at).
In early 2011 another ad came out. Diamond memberships for $1995 and members with "Don't Tread On Me" memberships can trade then in for a $419 credit they originally paid.
I called Frontsight (again) in response to this 2011 ad.
What is happening now, or recently with Diamond, Silver, ect memberships does not have any bearing on the June 2010, or the other ad offering the $419 credit earlier this year.

[big red]

Personally, if it had been my company I would have resolved this a long time ago by not admitting fault but agreeing to make reasonable modifications far beyond the options given in that letter for the following reasons. It would show we are large enough to absorb something like this financially, We would have turned a bitter critic into a supporter who could bring in more customers by retelling his experience, and my company would not be getting a blackeye all over the Internet. But that is obviously/apparently not how this company operates and it makes someone wonder what is going to happen when they experience a problem with them. I have noticed that the apparent defenders of this company and critics of the OP don't have much to say other than personal attacks on the OP and no facts about the company to counter the OP. But no matter what happens it appears the company is going to lose potential customers on this site and get a black eye on it's reputation.

[ZombieTactics]

Personally, if it had been my company I would have resolved this a long time ago by not admitting fault but agreeing to make reasonable modifications far beyond the options given in that letter for the following reasons.

I can attest that they have done exactly that in more than one case. My experience has been that they have bent over backwards to keep me happy and resolve any dispute. Given that this is my firsthand, personal experience I tend to doubt the report of the OP.

But that is obviously/apparently not how this company operates and it makes someone wonder what is going to happen when they experience a problem with them.

You have no knowledge to support this claim aside from the contradictory report of a random person who showed up for no other apparent reason on this board but to complain.

I have noticed that the apparent defenders of this company and critics of the OP don't have much to say other than personal attacks on the OP and no facts about the company to counter the OP.

I've stated several facts from my own experience, and I can document every assertion I've made. Noting that the OP has changed his story a couple of times is not an insult ... it's an observation open to anyone who can read. I've gotten every mailer, email and phone call from FS over the past few years, and I haven't found anything in my stack which matches what he's posted. It's as though he's cut-and-pasted from various items to create some weird hybrid claim to support his position ... one which seems to have changed a few times, BTW.

I have no stake in Front Sight. I do have a stake in the truth. Perhaps I have an unique perspective in that I have been researching and reviewing training schools for a few years. I can tell you this much with a straight face: EVERY training facility has its own share of spoil-sports and malcontents spreading all manner of lies and half-truths about them. One guy's a "felon" if you listen to some, and another is a "wacko fundie christian cultist". Still another is a "coward who gets people killed", while another "perjured himself in open court". I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone tell me that FS drags you in a back room and brainwashes you into Scientology ... complete BS. I can go on ... everyone seems to have some idiot with an axe to grind and a very loose idea what constitutes "the truth"

There's a common thread to all of this nonsense ... somebody got mad over something and decided to play the "I'm gonna get even on the internet" game or some variation. All of the above assertions about these various trainers or schools are ultimately false or so exaggerated that you have to question either the sanity or motives of the person spreading them. I am tired of abject cowards who hide behind internet anonymity, to play games and try to settle (mostly imaginary) scores ... that is when they are not simply trolling.

[AngelDecoys]

Read the ad it says AND transfer your current membership. You are correct the 2 Diamonds are not by initial membership. How could I transfer my current membership if this is my initial membership? (It is hard to understand the point of your last post, but I think this is part of what you were getting at).

You didn't own the initial "Don't Tread on Me" as it hadn't been entirely paid for yet, remember? Like owning a car without the pink slip. Buying the Diamond membership was essentially like buying a second car. 2 separate contracts. I guess you would have to pay off the 1st to transfer it.

In early 2011 another ad came out. Diamond memberships for $1995 and members with "Don't Tread On Me" memberships can trade then in for a $419 credit they originally paid. I called Frontsight (again) in response to this 2011 ad.

Change in story again. This is now yet another offer and contract. Much of this might have been helpful in the beginning.

I have noticed that the apparent defenders of this company and critics of the OP don't have much to say other than personal attacks on the OP and no facts about the company to counter the OP.

I'm not really defending FS as I don't see the company as having done anything wrong. Well, maybe allowing people to buy memberships in installments as a courtesy, but i can't think of any other training group that does it. Obviously, this seems to have led to a problem here . The OP isn't making much sense and that's a big portion of the problem. His story keeps changing. The memberships keep changing. The offers keep changing. Now he's really talking about several different offers and since he didn't spell any of it out in the beginning, were only getting pieces as we go along.

I've gotten every mailer, email and phone call from FS over the past few years, and I haven't found anything in my stack which matches what he's posted. It's as though he's cut-and-pasted from various items to create some weird hybrid claim to support his position ... one which seems to have changed a few times, BTW.

Same sentiment here.

[Front Runner]

The story has not changed. It is very simple to follow:
1. The purchased (2) Diamond memberships for $2995 each with a lowest price…ever guarantee, which is posted.
2. Frontsight offered lower pricing.
3. Frontsight will not honor the lowest price guarantee. Instead they gave me 3 options which I previously posted.
How does this get compared to cultist Christians, felons, Scientologists???
My posting only refer to 2 ads:
1. Dated June 2010, the original ad and the only one that matters.
2. Another ad saying the $419 memberships can be used as a credit instead of a transfer. Frontisight will not honor the lowest price guarantee with the $419 membership being either a transfer or credit, so what difference does it make?
CHANGE in story: 2 of you guys will be happy. I am making the first change to my story. The ad saying the $419 memberships can be used as a credit towards a Diamond membership was first sent out about Aug. 2010 not early 2011, (again, what difference does it make).
Angel: The 2 Don’t Tread on Me memberships were paid by check for $838 in April 2010.
Instead of Angel and Zombie spending your time trying to finding little detail changes in my story (because there aren’t any) you should spend your time trying to find discrepancies in Frontsight’s advertising. Maybe I can help!!!

[paul0660]

I didn't see the original ad but according to the OP it said "lowest price you will ever see it offered...ever!". Pretty hard to put "so far" in there and come up with a sensible sentence.

Yes, I didn't read the OP carefully.

[AngelDecoys]

The story has not changed. It is very simple to follow:

3. Frontsight will not honor the lowest price guarantee.

Already covered. Never existed. Kodemonkey even points it out in the 2nd post.

There's a difference in lowest price ever and lowest price forever. When you offer something, and it's the lowest price they have ever offered they aren't lying.

The offer did not come with a lowest price guaranteed forever as you keep stating. It came with a guarantee for that specific offer. I even quoted both the ad you posted and what you wrote (see post #49). The wording is not the same. It doesn't state what you think its stating; we're just pointing out what seems obvious.

Instead they gave me 3 options which I previously posted.

So 1st they allow you to finance memberships as a courtesy and then they give you options to remedy this perceived problem. Sounds like good customer service and something they didn't need to do.

My posting only refer to 2 ads:
1. Dated June 2010, the original ad and the only one that matters.
2. Another ad saying the $419 memberships can be used as a credit instead of a transfer. Frontsight will not honor the lowest price guarantee with the $419 membership being either a transfer or credit, [U]so what difference does it make?

Both 1&2 were not in your original post. The June ad was post #47. How about posting the entire ad for #2? Separate offers and quite frankly each offer is different so it makes all the difference in the world.

CHANGE in story: 2 of you guys will be happy. I am making the first change to my story.

Sure. Whatever. You're finally giving details that starts to make your problem a bit more coherent. This isn't about me being happy; its about you laying it out so others can understand you.

The ad saying the $419 memberships can be used as a credit towards a Diamond membership was first sent out about Aug. 2010 not early 2011, (again, what difference does it make).

Ad yet to be produced. Regardless, at this point it makes a lot of difference because you're already paying for Diamond memberships. That's the contract you had and walked away from. FS had no obligation to cancel 1 contract or apply whatever money you had paid with a subsequent deal towards the new contract.

I think i've been patient trying to understand your problem. It sounds more and more like FS tried to be reasonable with you giving you options (when they didn't need to). Sounds like you've got the 'Don't Tread on Me' memberships to use but you're out money for Diamond memberships due to some perception of a forever guarantee that never existed. You're exhausting so i think I'm done.

[elSquid]

I have no stake in Front Sight. I do have a stake in the truth. Perhaps I have an unique perspective in that I have been researching and reviewing training schools for a few years. I can tell you this much with a straight face: EVERY training facility has its own share of spoil-sports and malcontents spreading all manner of lies and half-truths about them. One guy's a "felon" if you listen to some, and another is a "wacko fundie christian cultist". Still another is a "coward who gets people killed", while another "perjured himself in open court". I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone tell me that FS drags you in a back room and brainwashes you into Scientology ... complete BS. I can go on ... everyone seems to have some idiot with an axe to grind and a very loose idea what constitutes "the truth"

There's a common thread to all of this nonsense ... somebody got mad over something and decided to play the "I'm gonna get even on the internet" game or some variation. All of the above assertions about these various trainers or schools are ultimately false or so exaggerated that you have to question either the sanity or motives of the person spreading them. I am tired of abject cowards who hide behind internet anonymity, to play games and try to settle (mostly imaginary) scores ... that is when they are not simply trolling.

OTOH, anybody can put out a shingle and claim to be a combat shooting instructor. The reality is that all schools aren't created equal and folks need to research before shelling out their money.

As far as your examples go, I think I might recognize a couple...

Gabe Suarez plead out and did go to jail for workers comp fraud. He apparently avoided perjury charges only through a technicality. There's a video on youtube where he talks about the fact that he came close to going on a rampage: he was going to go shoot the police officers that were investigating him, but only stopped when he found religion. Maybe this is someone that you want to train from, maybe not.

James Yeager...his infamous ambush in Iraq is available on youtube. Folks can go view it, do some reading and make up their own mind. Of course, the controversy for him doesn't end there: remember that video of his class where he had a photographer standing downrange between targets during a live shoot? That might be available on youtube as well. We also had a thread here on calguns a couple years ago talking about the fact that Yeager was challenging folks to duel to the death: he was insulted by some youtube vids and he wanted satisfaction. Maybe this is someone you want to train from, maybe not.

On one hand, I agree with you: there are malcontents out there. OTOH, some schools and trainers do have a history...

Caveat emptor.

-- Michael

[ZombieTactics]

OTOH, anybody can put out a shingle and claim to be a combat shooting instructor.

Many do just that. I've walked out (or didn't return after lunch, lol) on a couple of schools this year. There are some "entertainers" out there who have no business supervising students on a line.

The reality is that all schools aren't created equal and folks need to research before shelling out their money. ...

Yep, and that's a difficult task. There are plenty of people with great-sounding bios who really don't know what they are doing ... or just have no ability to teach. There are also excellent schools and instructors of all manner and variety. Front Sight and Gunsite are both great places to train, for instance, but very different in their approach from Tactical Response or Suarez International ... which I submit are also excellent.

This is one of the reasons I started my video reviews on YouTube, so that people can get a sense for the kind of training they'll receive from various places.

[ZombieTactics]

The story has not changed. It is very simple to follow:
1. The purchased (2) Diamond memberships for $2995 each with a lowest price…ever guarantee, which is posted. ...

The story "hasn't changed"? Crap, you can't even get your story straight.

Choose ONE Payment Plan:

____ 90 monthly credit card payments of $69 for a
total cost of $6,210.

____ 36 monthly credit card payments of $129 for a
total cost of $4,644 (You Save $1,566)

_____ Single payment of $2,900 (You Save $3,310!)

How did you possibly purchase 2 memberships for $2995/ea when the text you cut-n-pasted shows them for $2900? How did you purchase them on time payments for $2995 when the installment options show different prices altogether?

You're either severely confused or a liar ... there don't appear to be other options on the basis of the available facts. Given this, how can anyone take anything you've said seriously?