Tactics: Passive Non-Compliance

[M. Sage]

I did some thinking on this one today. This is a good example of why you need a good flashlight in your pocket, you need to know how to use it, and need to practice giving orders in a voice that says "do it or I'll effing shoot you" (without actually saying so).

Okay you can use force to arrest him since he is committing a crime you just can't use lethal force.

... in California you can't.

Note: this is Texas Penal Code... just so we're clear on that point:

I love it here.

[bountyhunter]

This is based on a situation in which a friend of mine in another state experienced. I'd like to get your take on what you'd do.

You are at home and it is "trash night". You decide to take out the trash, then put the trash can out by the curb. You're still wearing your CCW pistol, covered with a shirt or light jacket. Additionally, you live in the suburbs, so this is not a rural area.

When you leave the house to dump the trash, you hear strange noises from the driveway. When you look, you see the passenger door is open and one leg sticking out below the door of your still kind-of new 2008 car. Next to the leg is your car's CD player and a piece of dashboard trim. You can hear the whirring of a ratchet tool from inside the car.

You slip to a window and tell a family member what's happening and to call 911. When you return, you decide to confront Carl Carthief to prevent further damage to your car.

You tell him not to move and to raise his hands slowly. He looks over his shoulder, sees you have your weapon (if you'd use it at this point) and says "No." Then resumes his disassembly of your car. Again you repeat the commands and he raises one hand slowly, then drops your car's stereo on the ground. He tells you to go commit some anatomically impossible act and returns to wrenching on your car. Whatever order you give him, he simply replies "No" or tells you to go away and stuff yourself.

Your wife, thinking she's being "helpful" yells from the window that she's called the police and that "they said it'll be about 30 minutes!" [thanks a lot, dear]. You hear Carl Carthief chuckling inside the car and then your car's steering wheel airbag unit lands next to the radio and CD player.

Now what?

Get a real good look at his face so you can pick him out of a lineup. Then go call your car insurance agent and tell him you will be getting a new stereo and they will be paying for it.

Aside from the fact that you will do prison time for shooting him, nobody should die over property. And even if it is legal in Texas, picture yourself on Judgement Day explaining why you thought you needed to kill somebody over a CD player.

[M. Sage]

I bought my CD player with money. I got the money by trading my time, knowledge, experience, skills, talents and sweat for it. The money is my life. So is the stuff I buy with my money. I refuse to be a slave to anybody with the moxy to break into my car or home.

Don't want to get shot? Don't be a thief. The world should be that simple.

ETA: If you read above, I wouldn't have shot him, I'd have only broken his leg.

[Sam .223]

walk back to the house grab the taser and use non lethal force to detain him. if things get heated then i'd consider useing my pistol, but a good shock should just about do the trick.

[BillCA]

Some commentary on the responses...

Some of you sumb****es are really bloodthirsty, aren't you?

Since you're calling the insurance company at that point anyway... I would simply toss in a lit road flare and hold the door closed until he was ready to surrender. (That's one cowboy that won't be making an 8 second ride)

Really screws up the car... I thought about a full diaper bag... with the zipper open, of course.

If your car has a button on the key fob to turn the alarm on, do that too. Might as well annoy him a little bit.

The downside of that is if it's a really nice new car, the noise won't be very annoying to him inside as it is to you outside.

I don't think it happened, and I wouldn't shoot him anyway. Silly story.

It did happen. See MadMex's post above for a similar one.

How about getting in the drivers side and driving away. If he wants to hang on with his legs out the passenger side, that's his deal...

Do you really want to be that close to someone who might actually have a knife, screwdriver or gun on him that he'll use?

Carl Cartheif has a screw driver in his hand right?

it looked like he had a gun so i shot

And when the forensics shows that his hands were not in any kind of position that could have held a threatening weapon, you are screwed. Meet Bubba, your cell-mate.

Other fun things, like questions the DA's folks will ask of you (and your lawyer) --
Which hand was the weapon in? Right or left?
Slotted screwdriver or phillips? How long was it?
What kind of gun? Auto or Revolver? How large? Blue or silver? Of the items recovered, none was a firearm. Here are photos of all the items. Which one "looks like a gun" to you?

c. shotgun blast to the face.

Congratulations. You win the grand prize for committing first degree homicide. Go directly to San Quentin and await your appeals on death row.

I would have gone into my garage, walked out with a bat and beat him silly with it. I'd be willing to take the assault and battery charge, assuming he could successfully make the charges stick.

Congratulations. You win a 2-4 year stretch for ADW and up to a $10,000 fine. With any kind of luck, you might get 6 months and 3 years probation.

Anyone think of hosing him down with a dry-chemical fire extinguisher? If he comes at you, it also makes a dandy blunt instrument.

One could use a baseball bat or golf-club (a 2 to 5 iron is recommended for the length) to "bark" his shins a few times. Though I daresay that too many members would be a bit gratuitous with the application of said tool.

Holding the door down on his leg might work, unless he uses the other leg to push back hard enough to release himself.

A taser would work. So would an insulated metal rod of some kind, in contact with his body and hit with a stun-gun.

My friend in Nevada had an interesting suggestion. His son has a collection of about 8 tarantulas...
(Yeah, I'd come outta that car like a flipping rocket too!)

[BillCA]

The point of posting this event was to see how many people would think "outside the box".

For those who said use a camera to document and record his activities and his identity, score 1 for good thinking.

I'm surprised no one suggested "marking" him with a paintball gun. Works especially well if you freeze the paintballs first.

A neighbor suggested spraying him with fish-emulsion fertilizer if you have it. That smell will keep him out of anywhere until he cleans up. May take some serious car cleaning too.

My friend went into his garage, threw some old baby diapers (car polishing cloths) into a mop bucket and added about 1/2 gallon of ammonia. He then approached the car, kicked the door hard once. When Carl Carthief pulled in his leg, he tossed in the six or so ammonia-saturated rags and slammed the door shut.

When Carl crawled out the driver's side, gasping for air, he used a rope to lasso the guy. He took the rags out and left them slightly upwind of Carl. By the time the cops arrived, Carl was more than happy to take a ride in the fresh air.

This isn't as uncommon as you think. In some areas, thieves are getting bold and brazen. Simply putting up their hands and walking away from you to exit the area lets them simply walk way from the damage they've done. They know that most law-abiding citizens aren't going to shoot unless there is a direct threat. If you do, either they or their family will win the lawsuit-lottery with you the bank.

It used to be that a thief, burglar or car thief was considered a self-employed individual. That means it's his responsibility to watch for an unsafe working environment -- like your kid's skates at the top of the stairs, power cords he can trip over or concealed skylights.

It also used to be that a thief assumed all risks associated with his profession -- or at least his illegal acts. That included getting some knocks & bruises when apprehended. It also included getting perforated if he didn't follow the commands of someone stopping him from committing the crime.

Unfortunately, in too many cases, the prosecutor's office tries to "split hairs" on exactly what force was unnecessary and lawyers trying to find some way of punishing the crime victim who actually tries to stop crime. Especially in California.

The sad news is that Governor Reagan released a lot of institutionalized mental patients. The worse news is that a lot of them were elected to the legislature.
(the inmates are running the asylum now.)

[SVT-40]

Since this is a hypothetical... You would spray him with your OC spray since every good CCW'er carries OC for just this situation. Less than lethal chemical spray would be just the ticket.

Seriously if you are going to the trouble to carry a firearm give yourself another option. Not every use of force situation allows the use of a firearm. In fact most DO NOT allow the use of deadly force. Using chemical agents is just the ticket to bridge the use of force gap.

[Beelzy]

I would give him the keys and let him take it home. Why bother the Insurance
company with a piddly property theft claim.......Do it right!

[trinydex]

what about the other door(s) he can use for egress?

best thing to do is trap his leg in the door and lean on it until the cops arrive.

isn't this one of the reasons you should have restraints in addition to the gun?

[DRM6000]

isn't this one of the reasons you should have restraints in addition to the gun?

is it really safe and prudent to attempt to subdue and restrain a potentially violent individual alone? you'd be putting yourself in harm's way.

back to my previous comment. he is restrained by trapping his leg in the door. if it works, there is no reason to take a risk by attempting to subdue him and cuffing him or whatever. the thief has already made it known that he is not intimidated by the gun and ignored a direct command. chances are very great that he will fight if given the opportunity. if he doesn't have a gun, you'll probably remain safe. if he somehow manages to attack, you have the gun. remember?

ok, there was mention of thinking outside the box. what about holding his leg in the car door, break the windows surrounding the b-pillar and tying the door closed with the seatbelt?



oh, billca, the shotgun blast to the face comment was in jest just like the one about the vulcan death grip.

[zatoh]

I did not see a car thief.

[Curtis]

Taser would be my suggestion.

I wonder how much a taser is.... and is it considered part of restitution when they prosecute the criminal?

With the civilian version, Taser directions say to drop the Taser (as it continues to cycle) and run to a safe location. If you provide a police report Taser will replace your Taser free of charge.

[Tragic Image]

With the civilian version, Taser directions say to drop the Taser (as it continues to cycle) and run to a safe location. If you provide a police report Taser will replace your Taser free of charge.

I wouldn't want Taser to have to foot the bill, I'd want the criminal to have to pay to the max for his stupidity.....

[trinydex]

is it really safe and prudent to attempt to subdue and restrain a potentially violent individual alone? you'd be putting yourself in harm's way.

back to my previous comment. he is restrained by trapping his leg in the door. if it works, there is no reason to take a risk by attempting to subdue him and cuffing him or whatever. the thief has already made it known that he is not intimidated by the gun and ignored a direct command. chances are very great that he will fight if given the opportunity. if he doesn't have a gun, you'll probably remain safe. if he somehow manages to attack, you have the gun. remember?

ok, there was mention of thinking outside the box. what about holding his leg in the car door, break the windows surrounding the b-pillar and tying the door closed with the seatbelt?



oh, billca, the shotgun blast to the face comment was in jest just like the one about the vulcan death grip.

what do the police do?

[BillCA]

SVT-40 - This is not hypothetical, a freind of mine actually had this happen to him. His solution (since he doesn't usually have pepper spray) was ammonia soaked rags tossed into the car with the perp. You can't breathe, you lose interest in anything but breathing. Your use of Pepper Spray is a good place to start.

If you can't get it on his face on chest, due to his body position inside the car, I suggest soaking the crotch - or seat - of his pants. Usually within 60 seconds he'll have other concerns than stealing your stereo. You might even make a few $$ by renting him your garden hose afterwards.

The use of a Taser might be workable, although there is always concern that using it to thwart a property crime (instead of crime against a person) could be deemed an "assault" and thus a violation of 244.5 PC.