I'm thinking we are doing self-defense ammo wrong

[CWL]

I have a bad habit of aiming for the head. My paper targets never have body shots. So I guess it dosent matter what I use.

Typical attitude of someone who hasn't taken professional training. Ever make that headshot while you are moving?

You'll discover that if you ever had to use a firearm in SD, both of you will be moving, and making that "headshot" becomes almost impossible. This is why you shoot for the largest target, which is COM. If you manage to strike your target's COM, he/she may slow enough for you to then make an aimed headshot.

[lastinline]

My grandmother’s Buick did the trick when some perp tried to steal it from her; his decision to challenge an old lady, while standing IN FRONT of the massive gas guzzler was one of his critical errors. He never had a chance to fire the .38 revolver he had, her reaction to “hit the gas” as she said, was quicker.
This was in the early 1970’s, in Philadelphia. Now it would be called a hate crime, as she described him as a “Jamoke”, DOA.

[BrokerB]

Hearing that sword cutoff the front face is brutal

[12lbRooster]

That didn't go the way that you thought it would.


Even the guys who shoot the type of game that will cut you up or stomp you into jelly, use softpoints on everything except elephant. And that's only because they have to shoot through about eight inches of porous bone or three feet of muscle to get to the vital organs.

While it will be never used as such, I really just want a rifle in that genre.

Do you have a suggestion on the best 'bang for the buck' both caliber and manufacturer wise in that arena? The CZ options seems pretty attractive at their price point.

[EsotericEpsilon]

If you guys aren't using 500S&W for hd, then your doing it wrong.
Heck, might as well have 12ga 3.5" slugs in your shotgun...

[Fjold]

^ You have to be really careful with your hand placement when the pump runs forward.

[morrcarr67]

This is one of the reasons you mix ammo in your magazine... Say:
ball+ball+HP+HP+ball+ball+HP+HP etc...

Always load your penetrators last (at the top) in case you need to penetrate a door, glass, to soften the target, etc...

Oh, no! Not another one!

There was a time when people were taught: twice in the chest, once in the head. They were also taught to load JHP, JHP, FMJ for their first 3 rounds for this very reason.

[blkside]

There was a time when people were taught: twice in the chest, once in the head. They were also taught to load JHP, JHP, FMJ for their first 3 rounds for this very reason.

There was also a time when you were taught to blade your body sideways, cup and saucer the gun for support and raise your visor so they see your face and are unarmed.

Luckily advances in metallurgy and ballistics knowledge has made it so my little .380 will penetrate glass if I need it to. I have shot through plenty of glass and vehicle windows and never had an issue with penetration.

For the record. 10mm 220gr DoubleTap (maybe 200gr it was a few years ago) penetrated an old Detroit Steel Cutlass drivers door, window (down), passenger window (down) door and proceeded to put a large dent in a shipping container.

Shot placement is paramount. Caliber and ammo type but if you arent training for the unexpected, you are gambling with your life and possibly those you love.

[-hanko]

Tons of stupid in this thread...

[JWil]

I am going to claim, that pistols are less lethal than battle swords and bladed shafted weapons. I have read examples of soldiers being cut in two with swords. Friedrich Lindau, in his book "Waterloo Hero : The Adventures of Friedrich Lindau" saw a man cut in two by the Kings German Legion Light Dragoons. This horse cavalry carried the 1796 sword, a highly effective cutting weapon. Private Lindau in the same action came across a French Infantry man, whom one sword cut from a KGL Dragoon had removed the man's eyes, nose, and lower jaw. Probably cut through the man's shako, but that was not mentioned in the book. The Frenchman was badly wounded, and the unit did not have time to attend to him.

At the same time that there are very intense and brutal accounts of combat using swords and sabres, there are also accounts of swords doing everything from going all the way through a person (and then getting stuck and in the last moments of your enemies life, he swings at your and takes your head off, this was a common occurrence in the British experience in India), to bouncing off of a wound up cloth or just creating a shallow cut. Ironically, with swords the OP would be right - you penetration with either a cut or thrust is what you need to achieve. It's also hard to train people to use a sword well, compared to training someone to shoot a pistol right.

The only advantage a sword has is that it doesn't jam. But, they do become dull (the "blunt bone shattering blunt impact weapon sword" is a myth", and there are many accounts in D.A. Kinsley's "Swordsmen of the British Empire" of dull swords not even stopping a trooper when he gets "cut" on the head multiple times (such is the account of a private in the Crimean war, who was eventually killed by a thrust to the armpit) and also have other failure methods, like becoming bent (often a result of a thrust not penetrating, or a cut landing on the flat), or the hilt and handle becoming loose, they all have rough equivalencies with a handgun failure, but they are also a little more severe. For example if your sword bends and stays bent you either have to try to adapt the technique you practiced maybe for years with a now bent sword, or try and quickly bend it over your knee, if it became blunt you may as well only aim to strike exposed wrists and hopefully you have a sword capable of thrusting, etc etc. In my 6 years of fencing with historical swords, and using them to practice cutting technique, I have had countless failures like this. In my entire life shooting guns, I have never had any sort of catastrophic failure with any firearms, and 0 with any simpler gun like a centerfire bolt action, or a revolver.

[CWL]

There was a time when people were taught: twice in the chest, once in the head. They were also taught to load JHP, JHP, FMJ for their first 3 rounds for this very reason.

When was this?

I've been into defensive pistol shooting for 20+ years. I have competed in IPSC, IDPA 3-gun, taken training from professional trainers across the US, active SWAT, Border Patrol, ex-SEAL, ex-Delta, as well as participated in multiple forums, even had discussions with pathologists through family connections.

The so-called "cocktail" load has always been disparaged in mainstream & professional circles.

Please name your sources.

[Verdha603]

Tons of stupid in this thread...

At this point they should just relabel the thread to say "An Ode to 'Go Big or Go Home'", or "We don't want any praise for those sissy smaller calibers or underpenetrating hollowpoints"

[Prepped and ready]

Typical attitude of someone who hasn't taken professional training. Ever make that headshot while you are moving?

You'll discover that if you ever had to use a firearm in SD, both of you will be moving, and making that "headshot" becomes almost impossible. This is why you shoot for the largest target, which is COM. If you manage to strike your target's COM, he/she may slow enough for you to then make an aimed headshot.

Yeah, ok. I have shot at moving targets while moving. Im actually a very good shot and maybe dont judge people you dont know. Ive been out of action pistol for a few years but will get back into it when time permits. Concord PD training facility is fun. Richmond Rod and Gun has some fun events as well.

That being said, I was being a Smart Azz.

[elSquid]

The self-defense ammo should be going through the heart, shattering the spine and through the skull. No failure to penetrate BS. The bullets should be coming right out the other side. You shoot in one ear and it should come out the other.

This was written 30 years ago, still the best overview of the subject:

https://archive.org/stream/fbi-handgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness/fbi-handgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness_djvu.txt

[keepitlow]

Well, you knuckleheads drunk on man chowder go for low penetration if you think good penetration is bad. I don't have time to follow all BS. I'm going with hi penetration.

Here is how the Darby Rangers did it back in the day...

One in the stomach, one in the chest, one in the mouth. But as was said, it is hard taking head shots on the move. Their formula was for CQB and that after slowing them down with 2 body shots.