Force-On-Force Training | What's Preventing You?

[hunterb]

Open a branch in SoCal!

[Rcjackrabbit]

You would have double the business in Southern California.

That being said, have you looked at the average American lately? Go to a typical gun show. Most males look like they are in their third trimester of pregnancy. What you are describing is a physically demanding class. 90% of gun owners can barely get from the car to the shooting bench. A square range, stand in one place and shoot a paper target class is a physically demanding event for the overwhelming majority.

You are proposing something out of most peoples range of possibilities. You assume most gun owners are martial artists. They are not.

P.S. You asked what is stopping people. These are the facts. I think these facts are disgusting. They do not describe me. But, they are still the facts.

[Mayor McRifle]

Hey , THAT laundry ain't gonna fold itself !!!
On a more serious note , location , cost and scheduling would be the top suspects, I understand the passion you have for your Business but not everybody wants the products you offer , on the other hand this might be a ruse to "spread the word " about your company and if so , shame on you .

Might be? Of course it is. This has "marketing thread" written all over it.

[spectralhunter]

The amount of money and time needed to be highly proficient in a high stress environment is substantial. It's not just one day or one week of training. It's constant. Most compare the likelihood of needing such skills and decide it's not worth it.

Like many said, tons of people have defended themselves with minimal training in firearms because generally if there is a hostile situation, the aggressor also tends to be untrained.

If a professional is out to get me, a couple of classes in tactics won't help. It's like guys who take karate or other martial arts for a few months and think they can react and fight like Bruce Lee. Such training is a lifetime commitment. I'd rather devote my time and money to things that are more relevant to my current life.

[ThreatScenarios]

Hi all,

Thanks for everyone's responses thus far. It really helps us get a pulse for people's thoughts. Thoughts and replies per what some people have said below:

Apathy, time, money, over 50 years on this planet and so far no need to defend myself, nor have any of my friends.

This may be because I tend to live and play in low crime areas.

Yes, we crunched some numbers around how many gun owners in a given area, then estimated how many of those actually shoot, then estimated those who take training seriously. That actual number may just be woefully lower than estimated!

Distance and time involved. Busy schedules. Currently I have a injury to my right arm that also prevents it.

We hope your injury heals soon! We understand the collective availability portion, but I suppose there's always "life happens" anywhere from prior obligations to temporary incapacitations.

For me, it's hard to justify spending $400 on one days worth of training.

Also I've looked at your calander before and noticed you only have classes on weekends, this doesn't work for everybody. And I'm not going to burn time to attend a class.

Side note, I think the entire team likes creamy fettucini. How can someone not? Regarding training, our classes are <$300 and cover all the gear/ammo, unless you're baking in travel costs.

As for non-weekends, we're attempting to target the majority, but it may sound there's a heavy portion also on the weekday crowd. Instead of a 20% guess, any suggested days?

Hey , THAT laundry ain't gonna fold itself !!!
On a more serious note , location , cost and scheduling would be the top suspects, I understand the passion you have for your Business but not everybody wants the products you offer , on the other hand this might be a ruse to "spread the word " about your company and if so , shame on you .

Might be? Of course it is. This has "marketing thread" written all over it.

Hey, laundry is a big deal !!! Thanks for the 3 top suspects. We understand location is not convenient for everyone, but the facility was best equipped for modularity, lighting, and overall an immersive exeperience. We've certainly played with costs, yet we directly proportion the experience quality to budget we can work with. We do think for now, scheduling is the number 1 culprit, but are stil trying to find a solution to "aggregate" everyone's availability into a single day, per se. That said, we understand not everyone cares for the product, but we're still figuring out how to connect with those that ARE interested.

Haha this is not a marketing ploy, that's what the marketplace and facebook is for, and we try to be as active on facebook as possible. However, in reading the thread title, I can see how that could have been interpreted. Apologies for rubbing folks the wrong way, we're genuinely interested in understand where any disconnect may be (whether it be logistical or market, etc).

You would have double the business in Southern California.

That being said, have you looked at the average American lately? Go to a typical gun show. Most males look like they are in their third trimester of pregnancy. What you are describing is a physically demanding class. 90% of gun owners can barely get from the car to the shooting bench. A square range, stand in one place and shoot a paper target class is a physically demanding event for the overwhelming majority.

You are proposing something out of most peoples range of possibilities. You assume most gun owners are martial artists. They are not.

P.S. You asked what is stopping people. These are the facts. I think these facts are disgusting. They do not describe me. But, they are still the facts.

We've looked at the existing industry and looked at where it's heading. Yes, there are many... we'll say "stagnant" gun owners, however, there's an emerging fuel to personal self protection-- little do people know the reality of a defensive scenario can be chaotic, physically demanding, and very, VERY hard. It is significantly harder than it looks, and We aim to open people's eyes to that "OHCRAP" moment.

Do you think the industry is just that binary to realize we live in a world that is mostly a huge gradient of gray area?

The amount of money and time needed to be highly proficient in a high stress environment is substantial. It's not just one day or one week of training. It's constant. Most compare the likelihood of needing such skills and decide it's not worth it.

Like many said, tons of people have defended themselves with minimal training in firearms because generally if there is a hostile situation, the aggressor also tends to be untrained.

If a professional is out to get me, a couple of classes in tactics won't help. It's like guys who take karate or other martial arts for a few months and think they can react and fight like Bruce Lee. Such training is a lifetime commitment. I'd rather devote my time and money to things that are more relevant to my current life.

Oh we agree, mastering unconcious competency in a high stress situation is a lifestyle, most of whom aren't willing to adopt! and to be fair, you're right, it doesn't always jive with their heirarchy of needs. However, we do think there is significant incremental gains with their first few "OHCRAP" experiences as mentioned above. Despite most aggressors tending to be untrainined, per Steinbeck, "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck".

However, back to your very first point of most people comparing the likelihood of needing such skills and weighing the financials, I think that's where most of the delta is. Thank you and everyone else for the feedback.

[Epaphroditus]

25 years training is enough.

[Mark77]

I've done a little bit of training with a simulator, which is a lot cheaper, and I look forward to doing a bit more training, as well as the usual range trips. However, I can't afford to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on training per month, even though I'm sure it's more effective than using a simulator. In fact, for anyone to do this type of training, it's either something that they really NEED (such as a bounty hunter) or something that they can easily AFFORD.

[Dark Hunt]

99.9% of the general public would get more from a course on avoiding FoF situations.

[wurger]

Location, location, location.

If you were in Irvine...crazy busy.

[ThreatScenarios]

I've done a little bit of training with a simulator, which is a lot cheaper, and I look forward to doing a bit more training, as well as the usual range trips. However, I can't afford to spend hundreds and hundreds of dollars on training per month, even though I'm sure it's more effective than using a simulator

I see a lot of remarks about price. Question out to everyone: What's the general consensus on a 2-man FoF Tactics course taught by our SWAT guys for $200?

Could be with a spouse, buddy, or even a random pairing with a fellow student.
As we're playing with how to offer something the community will value at an affordable price. What's everyone's thoughts? At that price would there be much hesitation? Thanks in advance!

[ChuckDizzle]

I'd rather spend $200 on other things.

[ScottyXbones]

I used to train force on force cqb at Warfighter in Escondido, they were awesome instructors, but now I live too far away I'd love to take it up again with paintball or simunition

I think I paid $200-300/month for unlimited training, I don't remember. It was a month to month thing.

[splithoof]

Nope, not even close. Most criminals are counting on their victims being passive pushovers, once confronted with deadly force they fold like an oragami crane.

Obviously, the folks you read/hear/see are a lot less vicious and committed than those I have dealt with, I'll leave it at that.
$200 for a full dayday of quality training is within bounds; one issue is that a full day of combative training is usually physically exhausting to the point that most of us are better off learning/practicing for two hours max. And that is a very long time when you are actually engaged in aggressive action.

[beanz2]

I see a lot of remarks about price. Question out to everyone: What's the general consensus on a 2-man FoF Tactics course taught by our SWAT guys for $200?

Could be with a spouse, buddy, or even a random pairing with a fellow student.
As we're playing with how to offer something the community will value at an affordable price. What's everyone's thoughts? At that price would there be much hesitation? Thanks in advance!

$200 for the day is a price point I would consider, depending on the actual time spent on running the scenarios. If it is 6 hours of lecture, an hour for lunch and 30 minutes of actual shooting, that would be a huge let down.

But are we talking laser tag, airsoft guns or simunitions?

[beanz2]

Obviously, the folks you read/hear/see are a lot less vicious and committed than those I have dealt with, I'll leave it at that.
$200 for a full dayday of quality training is within bounds; one issue is that a full day of combative training is usually physically exhausting to the point that most of us are better off learning/practicing for two hours max. And that is a very long time when you are actually engaged in aggressive action.

If the class is broken up into several 10-15 minutes of scenarios and enough time for review and feedback, students will likely get enough rest as each student's experience, mistakes and corrections are shared with the class. But that would mean having cameras installed all over the shoot house or everyone (including the "bad guys") wearing something similar to a Go Pro.