Standard Operating Procedure for Leo's Trigger Fingers?

[jlh95811]

I agree and understand and you assume correctly. Open mouth. Insert foot.

It just really bothers me that LEO's pull their guns so frequently and point them at people.
Are you not modern day gun slingers?
Don't you train extensively to unholster and aquire targets?
I just think thatsince LEO's have a gun it is a certain comfort for them to pull it out but often it seems uneccessary though logical.

I don't think I'll ever put mysels in a position to have a LEO pull a gun on me but who knows.
What about open carry?
Have you ever come across someone openly carrying a firearm? Do you draw on them or give them the benefit of the doubt?

I know there is a point where a line needs to be drawn but it seems that line is consistently changing and is more of a judgement call than a rule.

[Gnome]

Jlh,


I don't think LE are "modern day gunslingers".


Based on the opinions of most Calgunners, I don't think LE qualifies due to our "lack of skill" with guns

Most LE go through an academy where they have a set number of range days. After their academy, they go to patrol. In the Sheriffs Departments case, they get to sit in Custody for years before going out. If they are not voluntarily riding consistently, their skills perish. So as far as extensive training, not usually. LE's training is real world. In patrol, most LE are constantly holstering/unholstering. Here is where muscle memory comes into play. So if you have your finger on or off the trigger, this is what you are mentally used to.

To answer your question, in my limited experience, I've drawn my gun on a lot of people. But the area I was in was Compton and Lynwood, not the suburbs. The people we jammed were not families or old ladies. Only once did I actually think to myself, "Oh f@ck, I'm gonna have to shoot him!"

I went to make contact with two men walking on the sidewalk. We were gonna detain them pending a drinking in public investigation. I jumped out of the car with my gun drawn, and at the hip. I called to the two men to stop and face me. They bothed looked back at me and kept walking. As I began walking towards them even faster, I yelled stop. This time, the male on the right looked back at me and reached for the small of his back.

It was dark, and his shirt was untucked. I thought to myself "He's going for a gun. Oh f@ck, I'm gonna have to shoot him!" I brought my gun up, finger on the trigger locked in on the small of his back. At this time, the Deputy I was riding with came from the left and yelled at them to stop, too. When they saw two of us, I guess they figured it wasn't worth it, and complied.

He held them at gunpoint as I holstered and grabbed the male on the right. I must have had a death grip on him! I searched him and guess what I found? Nothing at all.

I was so pissed at him. I asked what the hell he was reaching for?! He mumbled something about not being a gangster. I told him I almost shot him! He was drunk so he kept mumbling he wasn't a gangster. We poured out Their liquor and sent them on their merry way.

Every situation can go to crap very quickly. I had a split second to decide whether or not I was going to take this man's life. All I knew was "I'm going home to my family tonight".

[SkyStorm82]

Typical LE mentality

"If you comply you have nothing to fear" = tyrant mantra.

" I don't care whether you approve of my methods or not."

You should. His tax dollars are paying your salary. You are a servant of the people. Not their boss. What am I saying? Yup, go ahead, shoot him. The media will back you up.

Folks like you give level headed cops a bad name. Type A Rambo personality disorder.

No wonder this is called a police state. I feel so much safer now.

[nobs11]

Yep. Mock me.

This is exactly what our Democrat overlords want.

To perceive every citizen with a gun as a threat. Give more power without consequences to the troopers of the state. Joe Citizen shoots a guy by mistake, he goes to jail for a long time. Cops shoots a guy by mistake, he is on tax payer paid leave.

Severely punish those who oppose authority and create separate rules for LE. The handgun roster, 10 day wait, ability to buy AWs, etc. Keep em happy.

My coworker's kid wanted to be a cop. We talked some sense into him and now he is seriously considering a .mil career. Boy, was I relieved.

Again, I understand that there are level headed cops, but the current exchange shows that there are some who aren't and we put these guys on the street armed with the right to take people's life away.

[Jonathan Doe]

Just like the newspapers my ***.
Video is admissible in the court of my mind. Nothing anyone says or writes will be taken as gospel. But having seen incidents on video I can say that they do happen. So stop calling bs and furthermore please stop agruing if you do not intend to make a valid, logical arguement.

The video is a good visual reference. However, the video does not show complete sequence of events in many cases.

[Kid Stanislaus]

The video is a good visual reference. However, the video does not show complete sequence of events in many cases.

On top of that the video in question is at least a couple of years old and I'm guess'n just about every PD in the US has shown it to their officers. If not, SHAME ON THEM!! Truth of the matter is when you have THOUSANDS of LEOs across the country handling guns on a daily basis there are going to be mishaps. I wish it wasn't so but its gonna happen. That's not to excuse sloppy guns handling but I'm a firm believer in the ability of law enforcement officers to learn from the mistakes of others.

[Jonathan Doe]

Mishaps do happen. I wonder if anyone heard about an officer from an agency in San fernando Valley going to work, dropped his gun, the gun went off and killed the officer a few years ago. He was carrying the gun in a holster on top of his binders when he was walking to the station from the parking lot. I examined the pistol in front of th egun company people, the agency people and my agency and found no mechanical defacts. Yet, the officer died from the incident. Nothing is for sure and you cannot take anything for granted.

[sorensen440]

nuff said leo's needing more of a training budget
I say send them all to frontsight for a 4 day course once a year

[Jonathan Doe]

nuff said leo's needing more of a training budget
I say send them all to frontsight for a 4 day course once a year

I totally agree, only if the departments have enough money to send them. I am lucky that I am sent to factory armorer schools, HK, Beretta, Colt etc, but I am not going on the dept budget, but going on grant money. The departments do not want to spend money on training especially if they are short on budget.

[sorensen440]

I totally agree, only if the departments have enough money to send them. I am lucky that I am sent to factory armorer schools, HK, Beretta, Colt etc, but I am not going on the dept budget, but going on grant money. The departments do not want to spend money on training especially if they are short on budget.

In the scheme of things its not to expensive
I for one am willing to pay more in taxes for stuff like this
(hell if someone put together a donation sight aimed at getting better training for the leo's in my area Id kick in for it )

or better yet instead of destroying impounded firearms they should be sold to the public

[N6ATF]

Just think of all the money that could be saved by having well-trained LEO shooters.
Less misses in gunfights: less ammo to buy
Less criminals living long enough to kill officers: less death benefits to pay

and so on...

[jlh95811]

The video is a good visual reference. However, the video does not show complete sequence of events in many cases.

But it does show the end result. That is what matters most. Two LEO's(or former LEO's) have posted their stories here that show great restraint on their part for not shooting individuals who posed a threat. The threat was not great as evidenced by the lack of the subject actually having a gun. So they did not shoot. This is comendable. That is what I want to see more of. Better decision making in crunch time. Good job guys.

On top of that the video in question is at least a couple of years old and I'm guess'n just about every PD in the US has shown it to their officers. If not, SHAME ON THEM!! Truth of the matter is when you have THOUSANDS of LEOs across the country handling guns on a daily basis there are going to be mishaps. I wish it wasn't so but its gonna happen. That's not to excuse sloppy guns handling but I'm a firm believer in the ability of law enforcement officers to learn from the mistakes of others.

The video posted in NOT in question. I know it's old. Just put it there to show the kind of incident that causes concern. The only things I question are the fact that LEO's seem to pull guns when not needed and unjust shootings.

Other than that, I agree with your statement.

A LEO who shot someone because they were scared the guy was reaching for a gun is not a just shooting in my mind. Greater restraint should be shown. If they can not afford to train them properly maybe they should not give them guns. A LEO and his handgun should have the relationship of a Marine and his Rifle. Everything about it should be second nature. Without these skills it is negligent to put a gun in their hands and give authority to use it at will.

[BigDogatPlay]

+1 to "on target, on trigger". I was trained that way from day one going back almost 30 years to revolver days. It's simple common sense that we here all know... don't cover anything with the muzzle you don't want to destroy and don't put your finger on trigger until it is safe or necessary to fire.

But the other thing to bear in mind is that the rules of the game on the street were always simple; "I win". And I went home to my family every single night successfully so it must've worked.

I get it that it sounds crass to some, but you don't have to go out there every day. Those of us who have worn or now wear the badge do. And to be honest we generally aren't too concerned with law abiding citizens, such as all of you here, relative to our safety.

It's those people who would kill us just as easily as they'd break wind that we prepare ourselves for. They are people that 99.9% of you will never meet once in your life. We make their acquaintance daily.

For the record on the video in the original post, at least according to a seminar I saw / discussed it at...

* the round hit the pavement and ricocheted up,
* the suspect on the ground got a through and through near the collarbone,
* the round then hit the officer's partner who was not seriously injured,
* the officer, who was probationary (might have been on FTO) was termed.

[jlh95811]

* the round hit the pavement and ricocheted up,
* the suspect on the ground got a through and through near the collarbone,
* the round then hit the officer's partner who was not seriously injured,
* the officer, who was probationary (might have been on FTO) was termed.

Wow. I did not even know that. I thought nobody was actually hit. That sucks. Think the guy had a case?(don't know if one was ever filed)

[Seesm]

Let me give everyone an incident that occurred about 18 years ago when I was working on the street. One evenig in December 1990, just a few days before Christmas, I just pulled out of the station at about 8 PM. about 1/4 mile from the station, I saw a blacked out car speeding beyond the posted 35 MPH.

I conducted a traffic stop and lighted up the car. As soon as the car stopped, the driver opened the door and started to come out. I got on my PA and told the driver to stay in the car which he ignored. He exited the car and red flag goes up in my head. I exited my car and pulled out my pistol and pointed at him while making a agesture with my non shooting hand to stop. As soon as he saw my hand, his right hand goes to his back. When I saw it, I thought he was going for his gun.

I was ready to pull the trigger because I thought he was a threat to my safety. But, I thought at the same time, I am fast and accurate enough with my pistols, and I have the muzzle pointed at him already. I figured if he act stupid and pull out his gun, I had him already. I decided to give him maybe 2 more seconds. Within that 2 seconds, he pulled out a wallet from his back pocket, and pulling out a card from it. A sigh of relief went through.

I then called him ober to see what the card said and saw it said he is a deaf person. I wrote on his card "do not ever come out of the car when stopped by the police X1000000. you are almost dead tonight". I then saw a scared expression on his face. Obviously, he didn't think much about what would happen when he comes out of the car especially at night.

With the state of mind at the time,I would be justified shooting the man. But, it would not look good on the paper next day " a cop shot and kill an unarmed deaf man". You see the point?

Justification and reality maybe different. But the state of mind of the LEO will play the big roll on the shooting. I am glad I could avoid possible field day against me and my agency on that fateful day. I am glad I was competent enough to have extra time to judge and decide on the sitiuation. And in most situations where I came across the armed suspects, I yelled at them to drop the gun and all of them complied. I never had to shoot anyone in my career. Maybe good or maybe not good, but I am glad I resolved the situations without deadly force. I have to admit that there are some people not worthy living on this earth, but they all have equal rights as anyone else, and as an LEO, I will have to protect them also and provide them with due process.

All I am asking to all the Calgunners is do not judge the police involved shooting by just what you read on the paper or watching the news.

very cool, with what you said her it appears you did a great job and I bet that guy learned that night what is right and what is wrong. (do not get out of the car unless asked by LEO)

I was riding motorcycles at a area one time years ago in Marysville / Yuba City area and a cop showed and without asking pulled his gun out...

Mind you there was like 10-12 kids on dirtbikes riding here...
So we all stopped and we were freaking out saying "What are you thinking pulling a gun on us?"

The biggest mouthiest guy with us told him "I would put that away as you can only shoot a few of us before we get to you..."

The officer was scared or became level headed and put it away...

After Speaking to him I guess a rider tried to crash into him a few minutes before and he thought that was one of us.... It was not us but the whole deal was bad all the way around.

Lucky he just said to leave the area and we said thanks.

I think we all need to be more understanding to what is going on.

The cop feared for his life and so did we...

(PLEASE DO NOT DELETE my post) That has happened here now at least 3 times.

Curious why someone is not telling me why they are doing this...

Only when I talk about Police stuff so far it has happened... huh weird.

Remember I like cops...