Gun lock scam

[Big Jake]

If you as the buyer show up for a ppt and the seller has a lock that they are selling the gun with than you won't need to buy one. If seller does not have one than discuss (beforehand) with seller. Meet them in the parking lot with your own lock and have them put it on the gun BEFORE you walk into the FFL for transfer. Seller presents gun and lock together and says they are selling gun with lock and problem is solved. I've done this MANY times as a purchaser with a ppt and never had a problem. With a new gun it won't be a problem because all new guns sold in California come with a lock!

[whipkiller]

We donate the lock and ring you up for a Lock at a $0 charge on the invoice. We then have a sign that says 'donate unwanted CA DOJ locks here' which people drop locks they don't want into at a later time.

There is no law that says you have to purchase the lock for a certain price, the store can choose to donate one to you and you can then donate a lock back to them on your next visit.

Good policy.

One of my LGS's that had to make me buy one told me I could bring it back with any others I had laying around and they bought them from me for $5/ea.

Being forced to buy a $6 lock (even though it's BS) isn't really a big deal to me anymore, but the LGS making this gesture was kind of a big deal to me, as it shows they're looking out for us against all the CA BS.

When I'm looking to spend my money somewhere, I remember stuff like this.

I don't want to smother them under a Metric ton of gun locks, so I won't name names, but it rhymes with "Shmarallax Shmactical".

[ke6guj]

If you as the buyer show up for a ppt and the seller has a lock that they are selling the gun with than you won't need to buy one. If seller does not have one than discuss (beforehand) with seller. Meet them in the parking lot with your own lock and have them put it on the gun BEFORE you walk into the FFL for transfer. Seller presents gun and lock together and says they are selling gun with lock and problem is solved. I've done this MANY times as a purchaser with a ppt and never had a problem. With a new gun it won't be a problem because all new guns sold in California come with a lock!

yah, if you pay for one. I have bought new firearms in CA that did not have a lock and I had to pay of a lock separately.

[irishsig]

Same here, I just buy a lock at Big5 and then return it after the 10 days.

[Big Jake]

yah, if you pay for one. I have bought new firearms in CA that did not have a lock and I had to pay of a lock separately.

As of 2015 ALL new firearms sold in California MUST include a lock. PPT as well, however, with a PPT buyer or seller is responsible for providing lock. My above stated scenario will work for a PPT. I've bought guns this way for a few years and used the same lock over and over again with ZERO problems!

[ke6guj]

Good policy.

One of my LGS's that had to make me buy one told me I could bring it back with any others I had laying around and they bought them from me for $5/ea.

Being forced to buy a $6 lock (even though it's BS) isn't really a big deal to me anymore, but the LGS making this gesture was kind of a big deal to me, as it shows they're looking out for us against all the CA BS.

When I'm looking to spend my money somewhere, I remember stuff like this.

I don't want to smother them under a Metric ton of gun locks, so I won't name names, but it rhymes with "Shmarallax Shmactical".

I had to buy a lock at a mom-an-pop LGS (paid $7 for it IIRC) and after the deal was done, I asked them if they were interested in buying an old lock. I figured if they offered me $2, I'd just leave the lock on the counter. nope, they weren't even interested in that unopened lock for $2. oh well, took it home and tossed in into the pile of gun crap.

[gl0ckc0ma]

As of 2015 ALL new firearms sold in California MUST include a lock. PPT as well, however, with a PPT buyer or seller is responsible for providing lock. My above stated scenario will work for a PPT. I've bought guns this way for a few years and used the same lock over and over again with ZERO problems!

If this is the case, are you saying the FFL my buddy used for PPT just yesterday, broke the law for allowing my buddy to sign a Safe Waiver on a long gun?

[Big Jake]

If this is the case, are you saying the FFL my buddy used for PPT just yesterday, broke the law for allowing my buddy to sign a Safe Waiver on a long gun?

Correct. When I bought my latest rifle, which was this year I asked to do that and was told it wasn't necessary because all new guns were sold with locks as of 2015. PPT MUST have a lock sold with it OR buyer must buy a lock from FFL OR provide dated receipt within last thirty days as proof of owning a lock. This from a longtime (30 + years!) FFL who I've bought guns from for many years and I know this guy knows the law. Not some kid standing behind the counter a Big5!

[Decoligny]

As of 2015 ALL new firearms sold in California MUST include a lock. PPT as well, however, with a PPT buyer or seller is responsible for providing lock. My above stated scenario will work for a PPT. I've bought guns this way for a few years and used the same lock over and over again with ZERO problems!

23635. (a) Any firearm sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including a private transfer through a dealer, and any firearm manufactured in this state, shall include or be accompanied by a firearm safety device that is listed on the Department of Justice's roster of approved firearm safety devices and that is identified as appropriate for that firearm by reference to either the manufacturer and model of the firearm, or to the physical characteristics of the firearm that match those listed on the roster for use with the device.
(b) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:

(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the standards set forth in Section 23650. Gun safes shall not be required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.

(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt or proof of purchase with the dealer's record of sales of firearms.

(c) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from subdivision (a) if all of the following apply:

(1) The purchaser or transferee purchases an approved safety device no more than 30 days prior to the day the purchaser or transferee takes possession of the firearm.

(2) The purchaser or transferee presents the approved safety device to the firearms dealer when picking up the firearm.

(3) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt to the firearms dealer, which shows the date of purchase, the name, and the model number of the safety device.

(4) The firearms dealer verifies that the requirements in paragraphs (1) to (3), inclusive, have been satisfied.

(5) The firearms dealer maintains a copy of the receipt along with the dealer's record of sales of firearms.

(d) (1) Any long-gun safe commercially sold or transferred in this state, or manufactured in this state for sale in this state, that does not meet the standards for gun safes adopted pursuant to Section 23650 shall be accompanied by the following warning: "WARNING: This gun safe does not meet the safety standards for gun safes specified in California Penal Code Section 23650. It does not satisfy the requirements of Penal Code Section 23635, which mandates that all firearms sold in California be accompanied by a firearm safety device or proof of ownership, as required by law, of a gun safe that meets the Section 23650 minimum safety standards developed by the California Attorney General."
(2) This warning shall be conspicuously displayed in its entirety on the principal display panel of the gun safe's package, on any descriptive materials that accompany the gun safe, and on a label affixed to the front of the gun safe.
(3) This warning shall be displayed in both English and Spanish, in conspicuous and legible type in contrast by typography, layout, or color with other printed matter on the package or descriptive materials, in a manner consistent with Part 1500.121 of Title 16 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or successor regulations thereto.
(e) Any firearm sold or transferred in this state by a licensed firearms dealer, including a private transfer through a dealer, and any firearm manufactured in this state, shall be accompanied by warning language or a label as described in Section 23640.

[dozer wright]

Just ffl s making more money on ppt. If a firearm comes with lock they dont charge you for one dosnt show on order they just check a box. I carry a spare lock with keys in them in every car /truck / bike I own cause the day you pick up your firearm you will forget lock.

[SB1964]

We donate the lock and ring you up for a Lock at a $0 charge on the invoice. We then have a sign that says 'donate unwanted CA DOJ locks here' which people drop locks they don't want into at a later time.

There is no law that says you have to purchase the lock for a certain price, the store can choose to donate one to you and you can then donate a lock back to them on your next visit.

That's awesome! You guys rock!!! I have a pile of them too. For several guns I was able to use a handwritten receipt, dated within 30 days.

[gl0ckc0ma]

From Calguns WIKI

California will accept a gun safe as a firearms safety device
(b) The sale or transfer of a firearm shall be exempt from
subdivision (a) if both of the following apply:
(1) The purchaser or transferee owns a gun safe that meets the
standards set forth in Section 23650. Gun safes shall not be
required to be tested, and therefore may meet the standards
without appearing on the Department of Justice roster.
(2) The purchaser or transferee presents an original receipt for
purchase of the gun safe, or other proof of purchase or ownership
of the gun safe as authorized by the Attorney General, to the
firearms dealer. The dealer shall maintain a copy of this receipt
or proof of purchase with the dealer's record of sales of firearms.

other proof in (b)(2), above, includes the Safe Affidavit, but that works only for California law - see further, below.

California law - Penal Code 23630 (was 12088.8) - exempts "antique firearms" and firearms sold to LEO "for purposes of law enforcement" from the safety device requirement.

HOWEVER, Federal Law (Child Safety Lock Act of 2005) has introduced a complication with handgun purchases.

18 USC 922(z) requires
(z) Secure Gun Storage or Safety Device.—
(1) In general.— Except as provided under paragraph (2), it
shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, or licensed dealer to sell, deliver, or transfer
any handgun to any person other than any person licensed
under this chapter, unless the transferee is provided with a
secure gun storage or safety device (as defined in
section 921 (a)(34)) for that handgun.

and 18 USC 921(a)(34) has the definition
(34) The term “secure gun storage or safety device” means—
(A) a device that, when installed on a firearm, is designed to
prevent the firearm from being operated without first
deactivating the device;
(B) a device incorporated into the design of the firearm that is
designed to prevent the operation of the firearm by anyone not
having access to the device; or
(C) a safe, gun safe, gun case, lock box, or other device
that is designed to be or can be used to store a firearm and
that is designed to be unlocked only by means of a key, a
combination, or other similar means.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has yet to issue a regulation which recognizes 18 USC 921(a)(34)(C).

In practice, that means that California and Federal law are different on what is acceptable -- and safe for dealers to accept. For long guns, California FFLs may accept the safe affidavit; but for handguns, because BATFE has not yet ruled, the safe affidavit is NOT acceptable, and buyers may expect to purchase a gun lock with each handgun.

Anecdotal evidence at Calguns suggests that BATFE is in fact specifically refusing to accept the California safe affidavit. See this Calguns post for a reproduction of the letter BATF has sent.

BATFE enforcement of this appears problematical; there seems to be no record keeping requirement to establish the lock presence on delivery in Federal paperwork.

[gl0ckc0ma]

^^^^Sorry Big Jake but your FFL is advising disinformation

[gl0ckc0ma]

Is there a FFL out there that can produce a PDF of the Safe Affidavit, I would like to take this to the FFL that I was dealing with and show them and see if I could get a refund or even just maybe at least educate the guy who handled my PPT of the long gun.

It can be PM'd if not comfortable posting it here.

[Big Jake]

^^^^Sorry Big Jake but your FFL is advising disinformation

I guess so. I stand corrected and apologize for spreading fud!