Why Shotguns?

[V8toytruck]

If you need more than seven rounds of 00 buck you are screwed anyway.

LOL! I would hate to be in a situation where I would have to reload my 870. But just in case it ever gets Charles Bronson vigilante crazy, I do have a side sandle for 4 more.

[Bird of Fire]

As a defensive home based firearm, shooting from a position of cover, a shotgun is pretty hard to beat. There's just not much more to add that hasn't already been said. Buckshot is an amazing defensive round, and with practice, you can shoot faster than you'd think. If recoil is an issue, a knoxx stock is your friend. And shotguns are great garbage disposals. Slug? Birdshot? Bean bag round? 00? It will shoot whatever you have lying around, the versatility of the shotgun makes up for its lack of ammunition capacity IMO.

As an offensive zombie gun, I feel it's a poor choice due to its size, weight, and ammunition capacity. When you're facing thousands of zombies, that's alot of weight to be packing around with you. A handgun would be preferrable. But if you just have one or two people intent on asking for a small monetary donation in the middle of the night to further their crack-cocaine experimentation studies - shotgun all the way for me. My 870 is my go to hardware as opposed to my 1911

[sargenv]

And one thing you can learn to do in competition is learn to reload that shotgun/rifle/handgun under pressure.. If you have stuff on the side saddle, it'll be faster than doing it from a belt or other position. As a test for myself I kept my side saddle ammo carrier on my shotgun during hunting season. I picked up a few more birds reloading from the side saddle rather than from my pocket.. and it's good practice..

[mcubed4130]

...
A question I had is, what's the avg velocity of 00 buckshot at the barrel.

I'm not sure velocity at the barrel is the question you are wondering; sounds more like penetration or more to the point over-penetration.

#00 buck - as has been said; is about like firing 9 - 9mm rounds at the same time (typical spread at in home distances is about 4" diameter).

Handguns and rifles; have no problem over-penetrating 6+ walls as noted here. (unless you are using a 22LR - ) Do you want to simulate 6+ walls in any direction in your home? I know I'd be into my neighbors houses easy. [ Oh and those cute little hollow points? that are supposed to be lower over-penetration? yeah well... on wall 1 they suck up the gypsum from the drywall; and then they become like AP rounds; which is one of the reasons many PD's are going to the AR15 platform with frangibles.]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

Shotguns using #00 buck; are noted to penetrate 3 walls and stop on the 4th. (round balls don't over-penetrate like pointed bullets being spun by rifling in the barrel. )

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

With #00 buck; even if you are dealing with a target high on meth; running at you 1 hit is all that you need.

As has been said; if it's a hostage situation; backout the #00 buck; load the 1oz slug... you are easily eyeball accurate on iron sights to in city or on homestead situation (across the street; down the block; at the barn; in the coral; whatever - i.e. 50 yards on irons is easy)... 75-100+ yards if you have some practice behind your shooting.

-M3

[JPglee1]

I

Handguns and rifles; have no problem over-penetrating 6+ walls as noted here. (unless you are using a 22LR - )

I can say for sure 22LR will penetrate 4 pieces of 1/2" drywall and 1 layer of 7/8" stucco while still exiting with enough velocity to never be seen from again.

I wont however disclose how I know this hahaha


J

[Loner]

Shotguns are handy for close encounters.

[aplinker]

Nice personal attack.

This whole thread, and your question below, are yet another example of questions that could be answered with a 30 second search on google or one of the websites of the many manufacturers of shotgun shells.

The best answer in this thread comes from one of the top manufacturers of shotgun accessories in the country (I would say they were THE top, if they'd just make some Benelli M4 fore-ends )

I just found it amusing that you assumed that the whole of the military and law enforcement community would be unaware of what you've figured out to be the superiority of the handgun.

The natural pointing, 4-fold longer sight radius, approximately 4-fold increase in projectile energy, longer range, reduced operator fatigue and, also, the projectile flexibility of a shotgun over a handgun are things I thought were pretty clear from using them...

Then to finish with a chastisement of the users of this board after spending a few short months here?

If you don't want to be looked down on, stand up.

Your ridiculous sense of seniority on an online forum is very amusing and childish.

Thanks to everyone else (especially Mesa Tactical) on educating me about shotguns, some of what's been said I didn't consider before.

A question I had is, what's the avg velocity of 00 buckshot at the barrel.

[Rocko]

It is much eaiser to blow the lock off and breach a door with a 12g slug then a 9mm.

[1911su16b870]

Old sayings...
Pistols are for concealment, backup, one handed use as in running to extract a loved one from a bad situation.

Pistols are used to fight your way to your long gun.
Long guns are for fighting with.
One calgunner has a great sig line "If I expected trouble, I'd bring my rifle".
Shotgun is power and speed.
Rifle is power and accuracy.

[Patriot]

Old sayings...
Pistols are for concealment, backup, one handed use as in running to extract a loved one from a bad situation.

Pistols are used to fight your way to your long gun.
Long guns are for fighting with.
One calgunner has a great sig line "If I expected trouble, I'd bring my rifle".
Shotgun is power and speed.
Rifle is power and accuracy.

Post #870

[1911su16b870]

Post #870

good catch Patriot!

Doh, 871

[aplinker]

Post #870

That is awesome.

[M. Sage]

Cons:
1. Shotguns have a lot of recoil so follow up shots are very slow

Vs a pistol, getting a shotgun or rifle on-target, especially at closer ranges, is easier than falling down. Point shooting is much much easier with a long gun.

Shotguns have high recoil because they're sending a huge amount of mass with loads of force behind it. They do craploads of damage.

With practice, you can shoot even a pump shotgun extremely quickly. I've seen it done, and done it. I actually could unload my Ithaca faster than a friend with his semi-auto shotgun...

2. Shotguns rate of fire is very low

Easier to hit with, though. One-hit stops much more likely.

3. Shotguns have very limited range

Good to about 50 yards, more than enough for home defense. Slugs are good to 100, depending on the shotgun and shooter. Guns with rifled slug barrels and better sights (or even better, optics) are good for 150 yards.

4. Traditional shotguns (ie not Saigas) have limited round capacity and also take a very long time to reload (relative to pistols or rifles)

Mostly irrelevant to HD. Most HD situations, you're up against one intruder. I don't read of many, if any, that involve more than three. Five to eight shots, each capable of a one-hit stop, vs three badguys. Sounds like more than even odds to me.

If you need more, you're gonna die whether you have a bazillion rounds in the mag or one...

5. Shotguns are very loud which may temporarily deafen you and very clearly gives away your position moreso than rifles or handguns

Temporarily? Fire one indoors, and plan on being mostly deaf for at least 24 hours, and partially deaf forever. Handguns aren't honestly much quieter.

6. Traditional pump shotguns require manual cycling

Requiring training, yes. Somewhat offset, IMO, by the fact that getting a shotgun on target is much easier than getting a handgun on target... and keeping it there. Handguns are easier to learn, but much much harder to master.

Pros:
1. Shotguns have a wide dispersal area that can inflict some damage even if you miss

Not at 10-15 feet, home defense range. You're talking baseball-sized patterns.

2. Shotguns will incapacitate someone with a single direct hit regardless of body armor

Depends on the body armor. Plates should distribute the force enough to keep bones from being broken. It'll still hurt, but won't incapacitate. Also depends on load and shot placement on un-armored targets. I've read tons of HD shoots involving shotguns where the BG ran away and either expired elsewhere or was arrested at the ER.

3. Shotguns can use less than lethal rounds

But... why would you?

4. Shotguns are cheap

Yep.

5. Shotguns can be intimidating

Pointless. Don't bother trying to intimidate. An old cop once told me "if you don't plan on using it, if you carry it to wave it around and intimidate, your gun better be made of chocolate, because someone is going to make you eat it someday." Shotguns should be made of steel and wood or plastic.

The military doesn't like handguns for anything but "oh, crap, I'm screwed and my rifle is dead..." They face enemies that wear body armor frequently (or somewhat frequently), which is why rifles are preferred. An SMG would fit the bill much better than a handgun, because of the long-gun (kinda) aspect of aiming and control.

[randy]

Flying Pen a bit of advice. Be a bit more humble when asking a question and don't follow it up with a your arguementive statement. Buy a quality shotgun and take some classes. Advice is worth what you pay for it.

In having the magic bullet conversation with a friend of mine who is now a retired LAPD SIS officer. "A 12 guage slug is a magic bullet". He paroled double digit BG's to Jesus.

[AngelDecoys]

A question I had is, what's the avg velocity of 00 buckshot at the barrel.

Just re-read your original post for this thread. That question was never asked. Do yourself a favor and figure out exactly what you want to ask before posting. Changing your question AFTER the fact doesn't make you more adult, or taken more seriously. It just makes more people ignore your posts.

Your ridiculous sense of seniority on an online forum is very amusing and childish......

Nice personal attack.

This whole thread, and your question below, are yet another example of questions that could be answered with a 30 second search on google or one of the websites of the many manufacturers of shotgun shells.

Then to finish with a chastisement of the users of this board after spending a few short months here?

If you don't want to be looked down on, stand up.

+Infinity. FlyingPen, when people take the time to read your posts, and answer a question you pose, be a bit more humble. Remember, you're the one asking the seemingly childish, and amusing novice questions.