Why Shotguns?

[FlyingPen]

This isn't meant to be a flame but a genuine question for shotguns in tactical use by the police and perhaps the military and for home defense.

I think it over and these are the pros and cons of shotguns:

Cons:
1. Shotguns have a lot of recoil so follow up shots are very slow
2. Shotguns rate of fire is very low
3. Shotguns have very limited range
4. Traditional shotguns (ie not Saigas) have limited round capacity and also take a very long time to reload (relative to pistols or rifles)
5. Shotguns are very loud which may temporarily deafen you and very clearly gives away your position moreso than rifles or handguns
6. Traditional pump shotguns require manual cycling

Pros:
1. Shotguns have a wide dispersal area that can inflict some damage even if you miss
2. Shotguns will incapacitate someone with a single direct hit regardless of body armor
3. Shotguns can use less than lethal rounds
4. Shotguns are cheap
5. Shotguns can be intimidating


To me, it seems a high powered handgun (45, 40, 357SIG) with superior barrier penetration, faster aiming and much better mobility seems to be a superior home defense solution and better suited for military CQB use as well. I can see shotguns possibly having their uses for crowd control and maybe taking down doors.

Hopefully people can post actual replies and not just stupid one liners or LOLCATZ images that seem to prevalent these days on Calguns.

[JPglee1]

1 00Buck is like firing (9) 9mm FMJ rounds at 1 time... so in essence a shotty is a legal SMG (thats how I look at it)

If you've never shot a shotgun slug at objects then you wont know how much they DO penetrate, especially compared to wimpy pistol rounds.

Shotgun slugs WILL go thru most "bulletproof" glass where handgun rounds wont (its dependant on the thickness of the glass)

J

[Patriot]

Hopefully people can post actual replies and not just stupid one liners or LOLCATZ images that seem to prevalent these days on Calguns.

[sic] How's that for a one-liner?

Longarm projectiles tend to be significantly more powerful than handgun projectiles.

[AngelDecoys]

Don't forget. When you run out of bullets, a pistol becomes nothing more than a paperweight. When you run out of slugs/shot, a shotgun becomes a club.

If I recall, in another thread you wanted a pistol round with the most penetration. That's not always beneficial for HD. As you own the round until it comes to rest, many pistol rounds go through mutilple walls, or into the next house. Killing/harming a neighbor makes a pistol round (and a lot of penetration) a big negative.

Not having over penetration is a positive when inside your home. With shotgun slugs/shot you can pick, and swap tactically on the fly when/if there are differing penetration needs. (Swapping to a slug with a hostage).

[MadMax]

Shotgun slugs are very accurate at distance.

A semi auto shotgun can fire very quickly.

If you need more than seven rounds of 00 buck you are screwed anyway.

I prefer my 930 mossberg for home defense over a handgun because i can fire a long gun more acurately under stress.

[BigRich]

Shotgun pellets also have less "carry" to them when used in a populated urban environment. There is some merit to having a weapon that has enormous short range knock down and lethality with limited beyond target range. Velocity decay in non-sabot shotgun rounds is dramatic. There is also the ability to use the same platform to launch less lethal projectiles. Standard current policies have gone to a dedicated "less lethal" shotgun to avoid blowing up a bad guy when you just wanted to bean bag him. Another aspect is door breaching but that seems to be more prevalent with actual combat scenarios rather than the usual battering ram for "homeland" use. A shotgun is a useful tool when properly used. That being said, I notice more prevalence to deploying an AR type rifle these days. I supposed it is easier to train an officer to accurately hit a target at 25-40 yards with a low recoil rifle than with a high recoil shotgun. It has been my experience that a lot of non-gunny type officers tend to be afraid of the shotguns recoil and so don't train often enough with it to be really effective. The low/controlled recoil rounds are changing this.

[ajl2121]

Don't forget..There are also semi-autos. In addition, there are quick loaders where you can load four shells at once. Intimidation factor is also a big consideration in HD.

[Mesa Tactical]

To me, it seems a high powered handgun (45, 40, 357SIG) with superior barrier penetration, faster aiming and much better mobility seems to be a superior home defense solution and better suited for military CQB use as well.

A handgun is a secondary weapon.

A handgun is very difficult to shoot accurately, especially in a high adrenaline situation. This is easily proved during simunitions exercises when students are asked to grab a handgun and attempt to shoot students no more than ten feet away (who are shooting back). Typically during these exercises, experienced shooters will empty the magazines without scoring a single hit.

Another fun exercise is to set up a man-sized paper target in the desert or somewhere where you can shoot as rapidly as you like. Stand 15 feet away, draw and fire as quickly as possible at the target. Unless you get a lucky early hit and are able to "follow the holes," you will probably miss ever shot. Try it. Bring your friends.

Shooters who are truly proficient with handguns (most of us have met these people people during shooting competitions) are rare and they spend almost all their free time practicing. It is not a skill that is picked up and maintained with casual practice. Nor is the practice you are permitted to do at most commercial ranges of much use in a high adrenaline situation.

A shotgun is a superior home defense or CQB weapon because it is far easier to aim accurately than a handgun. And I don't mean because the shot pattern opens up and will hit anything 180 degrees in front of you, as many people think. No, in close quarters the shot pattern doesn't open very much at all. But the long barrel of any long gun allows rapid, accurate point and fire, far more accurate than a handgun with minimal training.

You can test this yourself again using the same set-up as described above for handguns.

This is the primary advantage of any long gun, without getting into the specifics of ballistics, handling, operation, etc, areas where the shotgun again excels.

A handgun is a secondary weapon.

PS: some of your assumptions are completely off-base. For one example, a shotgun has a far longer effective range than any handgun. You should try shooting slugs at targets 100 yards away. I'm sure you will be surprised. Try it with a handgun.

[Timberwolf]

Additionally shotguns carry a psychological "oh Sh*t" factor that pistols do not.

[randy]

1. Learn to shoot a shotgun it helps manage recoil. Not eliminate it manage it.

2. Shotguns shooting buck shoots faster than a pistol and maybe some FA rifles.

3. Limited range of a shotgun in urban environments isn't a bad thing. 100 yards is far enough.

4. Yes you can load your pistol faster than your shotgun. Except if you need to top off. Repeat after me gun empty go to cover or transition to your hand gun.

5. Shotguns aren't as loud as a pistol. or at least the noise is farther away.
6. What's your point?

[John Browning]

A handgun is a secondary weapon.

A handgun is very difficult to shoot accurately, especially in a high adrenaline situation. This is easily proved during simunitions exercises when students are asked to grab a handgun and attempt to shoot students no more than ten feet away (who are shooting back). Typically during these exercises, experienced shooters will empty the magazines without scoring a single hit.

Another fun exercise is to set up a man-sized paper target in the desert or somewhere where you can shoot as rapidly as you like. Stand 15 feet away, draw and fire as quickly as possible at the target. Unless you get a lucky early hit and are able to "follow the holes," you will probably miss ever shot. Try it. Bring your friends.

Shooters who are truly proficient with handguns (most of us have met these people people during shooting competitions) are rare and they spend almost all their free time practicing. It is not a skill that is picked up and maintained with casual practice. Nor is the practice you are permitted to do at most commercial ranges of much use in a high adrenaline situation.

A shotgun is a superior home defense or CQB weapon because it is far easier to aim accurately than a handgun. And I don't mean because the shot pattern opens up and will hit anything 180 degrees in front of you, as many people think. No, in close quarters the shot pattern doesn't open very much at all. But the long barrel of any long gun allows rapid, accurate point and fire, far more accurate than a handgun with minimal training.

You can test this yourself again using the same set-up as described above for handguns.

This is the primary advantage of any long gun, without getting into the specifics of ballistics, handling, operation, etc, areas where the shotgun again excels.

A handgun is a secondary weapon.

PS: some of your assumptions are completely off-base. For one example, a shotgun has a far longer effective range than any handgun. You should try shooting slugs at targets 100 yards away. I'm sure you will be surprised. Try it with a handgun.

What he said.

Plus, in addition to being hard to hit with, a handgun is very anemic compared to a 12ga or even a 20ga. If you have to stop someone at close range, I'd like to do it in one shot.

[sloguy]

Cons:
1. Shotguns have a lot of recoil so follow up shots are very slowno, they are slightly slower, depending on the action, and recoil is moderate
2. Shotguns rate of fire is very lowno, its as fast as any other bolt, lever or pump action. a semi auto shotgun is as fast as a semi rifle
3. Shotguns have very limited range how big is your home? whats your longest hallway?
4. Traditional shotguns (ie not Saigas) have limited round capacity and also take a very long time to reload (relative to pistols or rifles)but pump shotguns can be reloaded as you go and are quite fast with practice. you shoot a few and reload and thus never run empty
5. Shotguns are very loud which may temporarily deafen you and very clearly gives away your position moreso than rifles or handgunshahahhaa, you think a rifle or pistol shot wont give away your position? or hurt your hearing?
6. Traditional pump shotguns require manual cycling so do pump rifles

Pros:
1. Shotguns have a wide dispersal area that can inflict some damage even if you misshahahaha, a miss is a miss, and shotguns have a few inches spread at indoor distances, they are not the room clearing wonder weapon fools believe they are.
2. Shotguns will incapacitate someone with a single direct hit regardless of body armorso will a rifle
3. Shotguns can use less than lethal roundsif you are justified to shoot, your life is in danger, non lethal crap will get you killed
4. Shotguns are cheaprelatively. so is a sks
5. Shotguns can be intimidatingso can a hammer, whats the point?

[aplinker]

To me, it seems a high powered handgun (45, 40, 357SIG) with superior barrier penetration, faster aiming and much better mobility seems to be a superior home defense solution and better suited for military CQB use as well. I can see shotguns possibly having their uses for crowd control and maybe taking down doors.

All of this belies your lack of understanding of weapons.

A handgun is NOT an offensive weapon. It's meant as a latch ditch resort when your artillery, cannons, machine guns, rifles and shotguns are no longer available or functioning (yes, those are war examples, but it's there to drive home how LOW down the totem pole a handgun is).

The best way to think of a handgun is a knife with a longer range. It's extremely difficult to control, especially under stress, and does superficial damage without a perfect hit. They're difficult to aim on the move, as well.

The next time you're at the range, try walking and hitting a target 35yds out with a handgun, then again with an AR or shotgun. It's easy as can be with a rifle, very difficult with a handgun.

Handgun (9mm, 40, 357SIG, 357Magnum, 45acp) rounds are HORRIBLE when it comes to stopping the forward progress of an assailant. They only provide stops when they hit the central nervous system or the heart. Everything else causes bleeding, which can be horribly slow.

Rifles and shotguns can provide enough energy to do damage to whole tissues and bone, which provides another stop mechanism for an indirect hit. Take a look sometime at wounds, ballistics, etc and see what you think of handguns vs. shotguns & rifles.

Lastly, and 18" barreled shotgun measures, in total, to just over 30". That's hardly a barrier to movement, when confined, as to walk, you lower the muzzle anyways. You do the same with a pistol. To fire a pistol, you do so from an extended arm position, which is even larger in profile than a shotgun.

Hopefully people can post actual replies and not just stupid one liners or LOLCATZ images that seem to prevalent these days on Calguns.

You've been on Calguns 3 months and you're reprimanding other users?

[FlyingPen]

Your ridiculous sense of seniority on an online forum is very amusing and childish.

Thanks to everyone else (especially Mesa Tactical) on educating me about shotguns, some of what's been said I didn't consider before.

A question I had is, what's the avg velocity of 00 buckshot at the barrel.

[John Browning]

The average velocity seems to fall between 1200-1400fps, depending on barrel length and load.

Your ridiculous sense of seniority on an online forum is very amusing and childish.

Thanks to everyone else (especially Mesa Tactical) on educating me about shotguns, some of what's been said I didn't consider before.

A question I had is, what's the avg velocity of 00 buckshot at the barrel.