Just pre-ordered a Kel-Tec KSG !!!!!!!

[TheKlawMan]

I have been musing while doing a few other things about Mr. Weise's point: "Every 870 or Mossy 500 or Nova pump shotgun and many semiauto shotguns sold today by CA FFLs could be considered having a hicap mag if specialty shotgun ammo (under 2-3/4) were to be used.]"

He certainly rasies a good issue and I am not sure how it will be treated, but aren't most guns designed to properly function with certain sizes of ammunition. For instance, a Remington Express 870 is designed for 2-3/4" or 3" shells amd an 870 Super Magnum is designed to take 2-3/4", 3", and 3-1/2" shotshells. I believe an old Wingmaster is chambered for 2-3/4". If you use shorter shells do you have functioning issues? Perhaps you can feed a short shell but will it cycle if fed into the magazine? If you load them into a magazine will they jam the action?

Turning specifically to the Kel Tec, I believe it is fully fuctional with 2-3/4" and "possibly" slightly shorter shotshells. 3" shells can be manually fed one at a time. Arguably, the large magazine statute will be construed to ban ammunition feeding devices with a capacity of greater than 10 shells which the fiearm is designed and marketed to function with.

I saw where Trickster raised another point supporting the position that both tubes are part of a single ammunition feed device; each is loaded via a single loading port. Looking a bit further at the loading of the Kel Tec we see that by placing a selecter in a central position, both tubes are locked out so as to enable the hand loading of a special round such as a 3" shotshell. Bearing that in mind, it looks all the more both tubes are part of a single integrated feed device.

[Maestro Pistolero]

See the discussion here paying attention to posts 27 on , and BWiesse's posts in particular.

[Maestro Pistolero]

breath a sigh of relief and be happy to have your $$$ back

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=399723

That is also my post. I am not in CA. Nevertheless it appears there is not going to be a legality issue with this shotgun. See the thread over at "legal".

[Cokebottle]

If you use shorter shells do you have functioning issues? Perhaps you can feed a short shell but will it cycle if fed into the magazine? If you load them into a magazine will they jam the action?

No issues on a pump action. The loading/extraction mechanism operates on the rim. The only possible issues might be the similar problem with shooting .38spl from a .357mag, then switching to .357... due to the powder/combustion residue around the front edge of the shorter cartridge, there may be issues with extraction, but this is unlikely on a pump action shotgun pulling a paper or plastic-cased shell out of the chamber.

The "magazine" is simply a tube with a spring in the end that shoves the stack of shells down against the stop at the edge of the action.

Turning specifically to the Kel Tec, I believe it is fully fuctional with 2-3/4" and "possibly" slightly shorter shotshells. 3" shells can be manually fed one at a time. Arguably, the large magazine statute will be construed to ban ammunition feeding devices with a capacity of greater than 10 shells which the fiearm is designed and marketed to function with.

If this is true and it won't actually feed 3" shells, then they have shown that they even considered the possibility of the use of shells shorter than 2.75" and designed it so that the tubes cannot accept more than 10 rounds using shells as short as 2" (you would theoretically only be able to load nine 2" shells).

Of course, I'm sure a big part of that decision was to keep the tubes even with the end of the barrel. 7*2.75 = 19.25 plus the spring and plug. 18" barrel, so the butt ends of the tubes are likely around 3" or more behind the breech face.

[BamBam-31]

I have been musing while doing a few other things about Mr. Weise's point: "Every 870 or Mossy 500 or Nova pump shotgun and many semiauto shotguns sold today by CA FFLs could be considered having a hicap mag if specialty shotgun ammo (under 2-3/4) were to be used.]"

He certainly rasies a good issue and I am not sure how it will be treated, but aren't most guns designed to properly function with certain sizes of ammunition. For instance, a Remington Express 870 is designed for 2-3/4" or 3" shells amd an 870 Super Magnum is designed to take 2-3/4", 3", and 3-1/2" shotshells. I believe an old Wingmaster is chambered for 2-3/4". If you use shorter shells do you have functioning issues? Perhaps you can feed a short shell but will it cycle if fed into the magazine? If you load them into a magazine will they jam the action?

Turning specifically to the Kel Tec, I believe it is fully fuctional with 2-3/4" and "possibly" slightly shorter shotshells. 3" shells can be manually fed one at a time. Arguably, the large magazine statute will be construed to ban ammunition feeding devices with a capacity of greater than 10 shells which the fiearm is designed and marketed to function with.

I saw where Trickster raised another point supporting the position that both tubes are part of a single ammunition feed device; each is loaded via a single loading port. Looking a bit further at the loading of the Kel Tec we see that by placing a selecter in a central position, both tubes are locked out so as to enable the hand loading of a special round such as a 3" shotshell. Bearing that in mind, it looks all the more both tubes are part of a single integrated feed device.

It just seems to me that there's language and concepts in your thinking that simply do not exist in the relevant laws. It's not that your line of reasoning makes no sense (which in itself is an unusual expectation when discussing CA firearms laws), it's that the laws are very specific as to what is outlawed. Put simply, there is nothing there about "intent of design, function, or single loading ports." Those are things you posit. Barring some specific ruling and/or interpretation from the DOJ saying otherwise, the KSG breaks none of the capacity laws currently in the books.

I am, of course, no attorney. Just my uneducated WAG.

[TheKlawMan]

No issues on a pump action. The loading/extraction mechanism operates on the rim. The only possible issues might be the similar problem with shooting .38spl from a .357mag, then switching to .357... due to the powder/combustion residue around the front edge of the shorter cartridge, there may be issues with extraction, but this is unlikely on a pump action shotgun pulling a paper or plastic-cased shell out of the chamber.

The "magazine" is simply a tube with a spring in the end that shoves the stack of shells down against the stop at the edge of the action.

If this is true and it won't actually feed 3" shells, then they have shown that they even considered the possibility of the use of shells shorter than 2.75" and designed it so that the tubes cannot accept more than 10 rounds using shells as short as 2" (you would theoretically only be able to load nine 2" shells).

Of course, I'm sure a big part of that decision was to keep the tubes even with the end of the barrel. 7*2.75 = 19.25 plus the spring and plug. 18" barrel, so the butt ends of the tubes are likely around 3" or more behind the breech face.

Cokebottle: That info about the size shells the kel tec came from the this video found at http://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/kel-...tical-shotgun/

Below the video read where it states that "the KSG accepts 2 3/4” shells in the magazine, and possibly a little shorter, but it doesn’t take the new stubby shells. It does have a 3” chamber, but 3” shells have to be fed manually."

I don't think the folk at kel tec considered feeding it anything as short as 2-1/2", much less 2" shells and no one would even argue that the individual tubes were intended to or in fact hold greater than 10 shells. The whole problem boils down to the interpretation of "any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds".

1. The pro legal argument posits that each tube feeding device of the kel tec is a separate low capacity magagazine as neither one by itself has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds and the law doesn't prohibit firearms with multiple low capacity magazines. In fact the section in question doesn't even speak of firearms but of magazines.

2. The con argument is that where the feeding device isn't detachable but ammunition is fed via a subsystem of the firearm with a capacity for more than 10 rounds, the integrated system is itself a large capacity magazine.

Personally, I expect the CADOJ will take the second tack as such an argument is sound, but it may meet with failure in the short term should the courts find that the statute fails to allow for due process of law as it is vague as applied to integrated multi sectional mechanisms. Such may be a pyrrhic victory should the legislature amend the statute to plainly cover firearms with multiple magazines with a combined capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.

[Soldier415]

You obviously buy cars at the over inflated sticker prices at the dealer's lots..............

And don't worry. Once the initial hoopla is over, and once the first 500 buyers at $880 have discovered all the kinks and worked them out with KelTec, I will be purchasing one.

But it won't be from you, it won't be from Turner's, and it won't cost me $880.......

No, I dont buy cars at MSRP. I work to negotiate a lower price, and if the dealer and I cannot agree on a price, I take my business to a place that will work with me, but I do not view the dealer as "Raping People" for listing a vehicle at or around the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.

We enjoy a free market, which means that retailers are free to set a price they want for their product, and consumers are free to buy it at that price, or they are free to find a better price and go that route. But again, setting a price for a product is not raping or gouging.

I have the feeling that those dealers that are taking pre-orders at 5-8% over their cost for these are going to have a rude awakening. Keltec has already raised dealer price since they were first announced, and will do so again as demand rises from all the pre-orders.

Dealers will soon find that they now are losing money on each pre-order at that price, not to mention the shipping costs, etc.

As far as not buying from us or Turners, I hate not having an opportunity to have you come to the shop and give me a shot at your business, but as I stated above...it is a free market and that is your right.

Dan

[Maestro Pistolero]

It certainly seems as if there is plenty of wiggle room in the law to allow these into CA.

[Iknownot]

I saw the following posted up in KTOG poking around for more info on the KSG and thought people might find it interesting, since I haven't seen it posted up around here yet:

http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1297908528

3" feeding is a go
02/16/11 at 20:08:47
It's official, production KSG's will feed and function with 3" rounds. It was something we were working on, and we got it to work....BTW 3" magnum rounds are NOT FUN AT ALL to shoot, but if you are a masochist, you can shoot 13 in a row with the new KSG's.

This means the KSG is now technically a 6+6+1 gun, and the grip will say 3" on the side. It will of course still hold 7+7+1 of 2-3/4" shells. The ejection port had to be opened up some, and the ejector modified, but not much else was changed.

I'm sure there will still be info in magazines coming out that may still say that it only feeds 2-3/4" shells, but rest assured, that is old info

[ArticleTheFourth]

So, if having the switch is OK on this gun, I can design a single 20 round magazine for my AR that has a switch to segregate two 10 round zones that feed separately when activated by the switch and that would be legal?

[Wherryj]

I laughed when I clicked the Glock World link and saw "In stock soon", yeah right soon as in maybe 6 months...

-G

Even 6 months is optimistic. This IS Kel-Tec.

[Wherryj]

No, I dont buy cars at MSRP. I work to negotiate a lower price, and if the dealer and I cannot agree on a price, I take my business to a place that will work with me, but I do not view the dealer as "Raping People" for listing a vehicle at or around the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price.

We enjoy a free market, which means that retailers are free to set a price they want for their product, and consumers are free to buy it at that price, or they are free to find a better price and go that route. But again, setting a price for a product is not raping or gouging.

I have the feeling that those dealers that are taking pre-orders at 5-8% over their cost for these are going to have a rude awakening. Keltec has already raised dealer price since they were first announced, and will do so again as demand rises from all the pre-orders.

Dealers will soon find that they now are losing money on each pre-order at that price, not to mention the shipping costs, etc.

As far as not buying from us or Turners, I hate not having an opportunity to have you come to the shop and give me a shot at your business, but as I stated above...it is a free market and that is your right.

Dan

I've never purchased a car for anything over invoice (the most difficult being a BMW as they tried to insist that they don't sell anything for invoice), but that being said I haven't had much luck purchasing a firearm at anything but the current listed price-whether sale price or every day price.

Your options for firearms may involve paying market rate or waiting to see if you can pick one up later after the demand has waned.

[IrishPirate]

this gun is awesome, it will revolutionize how people write about fighting the zombie apocolypse. I'm buying one when the shock of it being new wears off, and another in 20ga for the wife when they get around to making it.

[spotz]

That thing looks crazy badass.

[sig220]

So, if having the switch is OK on this gun, I can design a single 20 round magazine for my AR that has a switch to segregate two 10 round zones that feed separately when activated by the switch and that would be legal?

+1

dont get caught with it...