Kel Tec Shotgun

[Reductio]

This is a pump-action shotgun, not an Assault Weapon by any definition, clearly, so the AW flow chart is not useful. CA PC 12020(c)(25) is the issue, "Large-Capacity Magazines":

Which is exactly why he cited the SHOTGUN flowchart.

[FatalKitty]

This is a pump-action shotgun, not an Assault Weapon by any definition, clearly, so the AW flow chart is not useful. CA PC 12020(c)(25) is the issue, "Large-Capacity Magazines":

The Neostead can fire from one 6-round tube or the other by flipping the magazine selector left or right depending on which tube is desired. We've confirmed that this is how the KSG also works, however the Neostead magazine selector has a center position that causes both tubes to feed all 12 rounds alternately. This would be a very simple, logical and desirable feature on the KSG, however this would undeniably mean the feeding device of the KSG is a "Large-Capacity Magazine" per CA PC 12020(c)(25)and thus the gun itself cannot be sold in CA without modification.

Can we confirm the KSG can only fire 7 rounds at a time before the magazine needs to be manually switched to the other tube? If there is a dual-feed setting -and Keltec would be stupid not to add this feature- then we have some work to do before these can come in.

by switching the KSG's selector to the center stops both mags from feeding and allows you to clear the breach.

so it's pretty obvious that these are two separate magazines.

also, my "6 shot" Remington 870 holds 13 mini shells... does that make it an assault weapon?

[NSR500]

Flowchart is not a legal document.

There's no restriction for pump shotguns specifically, but there's a resriction for capacity of an "ammunition feeding device", no matter if it's fixed or removable. As many have pointed out, the dilemma here is whether this design is considered a single device (bad), or two devices (good).

I almost wish these tubes were actually individually removable (like magazines), then it would be a lot easier to argue that they are individual "devices".

Ehh, no, it's not an assault weapon, its a "large capacity feeding device".

(c) (25) As used in this section, "large-capacity magazine" means any
ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds, but shall not be construed to include any of the following:
(A) A feeding device that has been permanently altered so that it
cannot accommodate more than 10 rounds.
(B) A .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding device.
(C) A tubular magazine that is contained in a lever-action
firearm.

ANY feeding device... Two connected tubes, even if theres a friggin switch to switch between them, is a feeding device.
However, IANAL and DOJ might think differently...
I'll buy one as soon as someone here has stepped up to be a test case.
I just hope that CGF doesnt waste any money on it.

This is a pump-action shotgun, not an Assault Weapon by any definition, clearly, so the AW flow chart is not useful. CA PC 12020(c)(25) is the issue, "Large-Capacity Magazines":

The Neostead can fire from one 6-round tube or the other by flipping the magazine selector left or right depending on which tube is desired. We've confirmed that this is how the KSG also works, however the Neostead magazine selector has a center position that causes both tubes to feed all 12 rounds alternately. This would be a very simple, logical and desirable feature on the KSG, however this would undeniably mean the feeding device of the KSG is a "Large-Capacity Magazine" per CA PC 12020(c)(25)and thus the gun itself cannot be sold in CA without modification.

Can we confirm the KSG can only fire 7 rounds at a time before the magazine needs to be manually switched to the other tube? If there is a dual-feed setting -and Keltec would be stupid not to add this feature- then we have some work to do before these can come in.

The KSG design is two individual tubes housed in one physical firearm. The switch manually activates the individual tubes for the action of loading, and feeding.
I'm at a point where the more I read about the system, the more I'm comfortable seeing this gun in California. If you guys are not, then so be it.
Here's what the KOTG FAQ says about the KSG.
The only way I can see an issue with this gun feeding 14+1 is if the two individual tubes screwed into one another to form one single tube.

Questions answered:
-What happens when one tube is empty, does it automatically switch to the other?
No auto switching, you have to manually switch when one tube is empty.
-Why pump, and not semi-auto?
This is Kel-Tec's first shotgun, it makes sense to start with a pump first. Most semi-auto designs started as pumps. A pump is also legal in California and many other states that have gun bans.

-Can it accept chokes?
no, not currently. but barrels can be changed fairly easily, so perhaps in the future.

-How do you load each tube?
similar to other shotguns, but to make it easier, you can use gravity to help. If you want to load the right tube, switch the selector to the right, point the gun down and tilt it to the right. This makes the shells naturally point towards the right mag tube. Then just push each round in the tube until it clicks past the stop. With a little practice, you can do it without looking. To load the Left tube, move the switch to the left and tilt the gun to the let and load.

Description of design/controls:
-Square button above trigger guard is the safety (cross-bolt style)
-Lever n Front of the trigger guard is the pump latch. pull down to unlock and allow un-chambering or cycling without dropping the hammer (dropping the hammer automatically unlocks the pump in order the chamber the next round)
-Lever at front end of the ejection/loading port is the magazine selector. Left/Center/Right. Center position blocks both mags so you can un-chamber a round and not chamber a new one.
-2 assembly pins hold the grip on, they are retained by a spring clip in the pin. when they are removed they can be stored in the 2 holes in the grip.
-bolt is locked with a toggle-lock into the barrel extension. ejection/feeding is also similar to most shotguns with a fork like elevator/ejector
-carrier is attached to the pump via dual action rods

Even if by some Government idiot's interpretation, they say it's a "Large Capacity Feeder", you can still block one tube. If you have to, just plug the tube with a plug that ran the entire length and had te be removed with a tool. The damn gun will still function with only one tube.

[NSR500]

by switching the KSG's selector to the center stops both mags from feeding and allows you to clear the breach.

so it's pretty obvious that these are two separate magazines.

also, my "6 shot" Remington 870 holds 13 mini shells... does that make it an assault weapon?

Exactly...

You guys don't like the CGF shotgun chart, so here's the feeding device information. Show me where it makes a reference to a "Tube Fed Pump Action Shotgun".

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions

You guys want to get into the minutia... Then explain why a basic pump action shotgun with a tube extension that can fit 10+ Aguila Mini Shells is different from this KSG.

[gose]

Exactly...
You guys don't like the CGF shotgun chart, so here's the feeding device information. Show me where it makes a reference to a "Tube Fed Pump Action Shotgun".

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Large-capacity_magazine_restrictions

You guys want to get into the minutia... Then explain why a basic pump action shotgun with a tube extension that can fit 10+ Aguila Mini Shells is different from this KSG.

If you put a tube that can hold more than 10 3" shells on a pump, or semi, gun that is chambered for 3", you created a large capacity feeding device.
The fact that it can hold 11 2 3/4" shells, or 20 mini shells is irrelevant, similar to how most .40 mags can hold more than 10 rounds of 9mm.

[NSR500]

No, I don't think the fact mini shells increase capacity is irrelevavnt.
In the eyes of the law, 12ga is 12ga. What firearms examiner will say otherwise when the Aguila mini shells say 12ga on the box?

[TangoCharlie]

If you put a tube that can hold more than 10 3" shells on a pump, or semi, gun that is chambered for 3", you created a large capacity feeding device.
The fact that it can hold 11 2 3/4" shells, or 20 mini shells is irrelevant, similar to how most .40 mags can hold more than 10 rounds of 9mm.

This.

"Assault Weapons" and "Large Capacity Magazines" are two very different things here. The KSG could be viewed as a pump-action shotgun with a "large-Capacity magazine" making it illegal unless modified. There is no AW issue here.

[NSR500]

I'm already entertaining you guy's "Large Capacity Feeding Device" argument. Geez...

Now that we're focused on the same issue, why won't any of you address Mini Shells? The damn things are 12ga and will make some off the rack guns, and their tubes hold more than 10rds.
Using your logic about "Large Capacity" an off the shelf 870 with 8rd tube in 2.75" would trigger a violation because 10+ mini shells could be fired from the same tube.

[NSR500]

As for the 9mm in .40s&w magazine argument, you would be breaking the law using a .40s&w magazine to fire more than 10, 9mm rounds.
So why are mini shells irrelevant, gose?
Why does your logic require the chamber size with the shotgun?

If you guys want to keep thinking the KSG is illegal, so be it. I don't think it is.
More for me and likeminded folks who aren't concerned with capacity to pick one up.

[Barabas]

If the mag tubes are anything like every other shotgun mag tube on the market (and it appears that they are, tube caps and all) then it would be a simple matter to put a wooden plug in and permanently attach it by running a screw through the mag cap. You could even epoxy it to satisfy the guys who think a screw or rivet isn't enough to trigger permanency.

I, however, won't be waiting for a test case.

[1911Operator]

I am not worried about the statute as written, as this gun has 2 separate feeding devices.

You can't insert all 14 shells to the opening of one device, you have to separately load 7 shells to each device.

Maybe keltec will make a block the size of 2 rounds, and put one in each tube? that would limit 5 rounds per tube. thats good enough for me! 5 rounds of buck and 5 of slugs = the ultimate zombie slayer

[1911Operator]

wow, so i just read some of the comments above me, this is gonna be a weird case. since you do not have consistant feeding of both tubes, this should be legal right? because you have to manually switch over to the other tube. kinda like swapping mags. it takes a second or 2. hmmm, im interested in seeing what happens with this one.

[Toast]

As for the 9mm in .40s&w magazine argument, you would be breaking the law using a .40s&w magazine to fire more than 10, 9mm rounds.

I don't think the KSG is illegal either, but using 10+ 9mm in a 10 round .40s&w magazine is not illegal. A legal, unmodified 10 round mag (.40 s&w) is still a 10 round mag even if you can stuff more of a different caliber in it.

[gose]

As for the 9mm in .40s&w magazine argument, you would be breaking the law using a .40s&w magazine to fire more than 10, 9mm rounds.
So why are mini shells irrelevant, gose?
Why does your logic require the chamber size with the shotgun?
If you guys want to keep thinking the KSG is illegal, so be it. I don't think it is.
More for me and likeminded folks who aren't concerned with capacity to pick one up.

Using a .40 mag in a 9mm is a gray area, but most people, including Gene (http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...67&postcount=3) seem to think that its ok and by logical conclusion, it would then be legal to stuff 20 min shells into a shotgun tube that's intended for 10 3" shells.

Shoving more than 10 rounds of 3" shells into a device that's designed for 3" shells, even if that device has two tubes, is a different story.

It _might_ be kosher, but I seriously doubt it.

[Sgt. K]

All arguments aside, I want one- ASAP!!!