Considering Fixed Power vs Variable 1-6 Scope

[postal]

I use hornady brass and 140g amax. Works very well. The G1 BC is .585.

Some use bergers hybrids and scenars- with the 6mm.

I push 2805 fps some people run up to about 2840-2850 ish. Most people use 4350- some use Rl17. I use RL17 since I found a bunch in stock.

6.5 creed 140g amax 41.7gr of RL17. 26" barrel 2805 fps.

I've been looking for 75g amax for awhile for 223 and it's never in stock....

I never shoot my 22's anymore.... stupid flippers..... My stash is starting to get low.

[PrimaryArms]

Considering Fixed Power vs Variable 1-6 Scope

I use hornady brass and 140g amax. Works very well. The G1 BC is .585.

Some use bergers hybrids and scenars- with the 6mm.

I push 2805 fps some people run up to about 2840-2850 ish. Most people use 4350- some use Rl17. I use RL17 since I found a bunch in stock.

6.5 creed 140g amax 41.7gr of RL17. 26" barrel 2805 fps.

I've been looking for 75g amax for awhile for 223 and it's never in stock....

I never shoot my 22's anymore.... stupid flippers..... My stash is starting to get low.

Yeah its too fast. 2600-2650 and your center massing out to 1000

What reticle do you shoot? Standard mil? Usmc or army mildots? Or are you using a Horus?



-Dimitri

[JMP]

I like the Hornady bullets for light weight .22. I used to use the 50gr V-Max when I had a long barreled .22 bolt action. Now, I just use cheapo 55gr Hornady or Xtreme FMJ for ARs. I just throw 'em on a progressive with spherical powder.

For 6.5CD, I run 41.5gr H4350, 139gr Scenar. It's about 2,820 fps.

For fun, you can test your reticle on my flattest short action that jams a 6mm with .510 G1 at about 3,325.

[postal]

Yeah its too fast. 2600-2650 and your center massing out to 1000

What reticle do you shoot? Standard mil? Usmc or army mildots? Or are you using a Horus?



-Dimitri

I use the bushnell G2 DMR 3.5-21

I also have the vortex viper PST 6-24

Both mil/mil FFP. I like the bushnell better. The PST is on my 'varminter' AR with the 77 smk since I cant find the 75 amax. Still havent worked out an accurate load for that rifle....

On a side note, I personally think your 22lr reticle is interesting, but you should get rid of the glass bottle.....

Most ranges dont allow shooting glass, and shooting BLM or boonies... people should pack out what they pack in, and shooting glass bottles and leaving the broken glass is bad.... Otherwise, seems decent. I have a nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 on my 10/22. I saw someone with a USO laying around.... and had a 3.2-17 TPAL sitting on a 22lr once..... I know some people with too much money......

[PrimaryArms]

Considering Fixed Power vs Variable 1-6 Scope



We recommend plastic bottles.
But I put in there for pest control as well. And why the main crosshairs are set for clays.

[PrimaryArms]

Considering Fixed Power vs Variable 1-6 Scope

I use the bushnell G2 DMR 3.5-21

I also have the vortex viper PST 6-24

Both mil/mil FFP. I like the bushnell better. The PST is on my 'varminter' AR with the 77 smk since I cant find the 75 amax. Still havent worked out an accurate load for that rifle....

On a side note, I personally think your 22lr reticle is interesting, but you should get rid of the glass bottle.....

Most ranges dont allow shooting glass, and shooting BLM or boonies... people should pack out what they pack in, and shooting glass bottles and leaving the broken glass is bad.... Otherwise, seems decent. I have a nikon buckmaster 4.5-14 on my 10/22. I saw someone with a USO laying around.... and had a 3.2-17 TPAL sitting on a 22lr once..... I know some people with too much money......

Really? Do you dial in or use the tree?why are there numbers on right horizontal and not left? How would you lead on left? When at full X can you still see the .10 mil marks? How do you hold for say a 2 mil hold at say the 3rd mil down? I think you guys would love my ACSS Rgrid reticle when it comes out.

-Dimitri

[babe]

Does owning an Acog make you an operator?
Its a premilled system designed to do the same thing. Glad you like the red dots.

-Dimitri

Not a comment from a company I would do business with. From this point forward, my response to primary arms questions will be to reference this comment.

[PrimaryArms]

Considering Fixed Power vs Variable 1-6 Scope

Not a comment from a company I would do business with. From this point forward, my response to primary arms questions will be to reference this comment.

I guess im not operator enough

I do love your micro dots, I have a few of those and recommend them often.

What? I think your miss interpreting what was said. Sorry if your offended.

-Dimitri

[postal]

Really? Do you dial in or use the tree?why are there numbers on right horizontal and not left? How would you lead on left? When at full X can you still see the .10 mil marks? How do you hold for say a 2 mil hold at say the 3rd mil down? I think you guys would love my ACSS Rgrid reticle when it comes out.

-Dimitri

I dial when I can. Some COF requires holdover at multiple distance. The tree is not cluttered like a horus, but still useful. The reticule is easy to understand and gives holdover and wind. I'm familiar enough with it to know what I'm looking at, and can count... so I can hold to the left easily.

At full power the reticule is plain as day. However being Japanese glass/design instead of euro, at 19 power it starts to tunnel.

The 1/10 mils at the edge of the reticle are a fantastic feature so you can accurately mil an object on the horizontal or vertical plane to 1/10 accuracy. Set your tenths to the nearest full or half, an you know what mil an object is to a tenth easy.

Consider they have this for the vert and horizontal plane so you can use either dimension.......

Your "hunting" scope for broadside deer only.... What if the deer is facing you? What if the deer is facing away from you? And you sont have thar broadside belly to back measurement?

I really like the G2 reticle. It has plenty of info in it without being cluttered and overwhelming. It works under a lot of different scenarios Yes I need to count going left..... How's that hunting reticle going to work when you cant broadside a deer? Hows that 22 reticle going to work on a 1 gal bottle instead of a 1 liter?

No reticle is perfect- simple fact- Find the most useful for the most conditions, learn how to use it, and run it.

[PrimaryArms]

I dial when I can. Some COF requires holdover at multiple distance. The tree is not cluttered like a horus, but still useful. The reticule is easy to understand and gives holdover and wind. I'm familiar enough with it to know what I'm looking at, and can count... so I can hold to the left easily.



At full power the reticule is plain as day. However being Japanese glass/design instead of euro, at 19 power it starts to tunnel.



The 1/10 mils at the edge of the reticle are a fantastic feature so you can accurately mil an object on the horizontal or vertical plane to 1/10 accuracy. Set your tenths to the nearest full or half, an you know what mil an object is to a tenth easy.



Consider they have this for the vert and horizontal plane so you can use either dimension.......



Your "hunting" scope for broadside deer only.... What if the deer is facing you? What if the deer is facing away from you? And you sont have thar broadside belly to back measurement?



I really like the G2 reticle. It has plenty of info in it without being cluttered and overwhelming. It works under a lot of different scenarios Yes I need to count going left..... How's that hunting reticle going to work when you cant broadside a deer? Hows that 22 reticle going to work on a 1 gal bottle instead of a 1 liter?



No reticle is perfect- simple fact- Find the most useful for the most conditions, learn how to use it, and run it.

There are mils on the hunting reticle. But you can still measure its center mass using the same lines. I was not trying to down talk that reticle I was just asking how it works.

-Dimitri

[JMP]

Really? Do you dial in or use the tree?why are there numbers on right horizontal and not left? How would you lead on left?

That reticle is symmetrical, so the numbers really aren't even relevant. But, they are placed on the right side, so they are listed in numeric order (2,4,6,8). Then, the vertical numbers are placed on the left side to minimize the amount of excess clutter. For shooting at longer ranges, you really want a reticle that doesn't have too much stuff on it. You will want to watch your bullet make contact. If you miss, it may just result in a tiny splash. You do not want to miss that splash.

Heck, most of the reticles I shoot have no numbers on them. You just learn the design. But, of course for longer range shooting, you'll want a more exact firing solution. So, you will be using a ballistic calculator, which takes into account many more variables than just wind and gravity.

You will also want to range optronically rather than milling. It simply is not precise enough for longer range targets.

Also, having a lot of stuff on the reticle becomes a tragedy if you are shooting in conjunction with an image intensifier as it's much tougher to see targets in the dark.

The BDC stuff works much better for closer range applications. It's really impossible to design a do-everything scope. There are pros and cons to everything. What is good for ELR will be horrible for tactical short action precisions.

If you ask a BR shooter what his favorite scope is, he'll probably tell you March, who makes specialized scopes. An intermediate to long range tactical shooter will probably favor something like a Schmidt 5-25x56, and a 3-gunner will probably favor a 1-6x.

There's a lot of preference involved as well.

[PrimaryArms]

Considering Fixed Power vs Variable 1-6 Scope

That reticle is symmetrical, so the numbers really aren't even relevant. But, they are placed on the right side, so they are listed in numeric order (2,4,6,8). Then, the vertical numbers are placed on the left side to minimize the amount of excess clutter. For shooting at longer ranges, you really want a reticle that doesn't have too much stuff on it. You will want to watch your bullet make contact. If you miss, it may just result in a tiny splash. You do not want to miss that splash.



Heck, most of the reticles I shoot have no numbers on them. You just learn the design. But, of course for longer range shooting, you'll want a more exact firing solution. So, you will be using a ballistic calculator, which takes into account many more variables than just wind and gravity.



You will also want to range optronically rather than milling. It simply is not precise enough for longer range targets.



Also, having a lot of stuff on the reticle becomes a tragedy if you are shooting in conjunction with an image intensifier as it's much tougher to see targets in the dark.



The BDC stuff works much better for closer range applications. It's really impossible to design a do-everything scope. There are pros and cons to everything. What is good for ELR will be horrible for tactical short action precisions.



If you ask a BR shooter what his favorite scope is, he'll probably tell you March, who makes specialized scopes. An intermediate to long range tactical shooter will probably favor something like a Schmidt 5-25x56, and a 3-gunner will probably favor a 1-6x.



There's a lot of preference involved as well.

For me it would be really hard to engage targets of opportunity, and movers with a reticle like that. I can see its value for long range precision shooting.
To engage multiple targets of an unknown distance on the fly you need a pre milled system.
It's caliber specific and BDC is right on out to 800 at 900-1000 all the variables start coming into play but again the groups out there are anywhere from 20-40" much more then the environmental changes to begin with using an AR.308 and for .308 bolt guns the groups are a little tighter but not much. This reticle has been designed by feed back from some of the best sniper instructors including Shawn Huges.
When we showed him he actually made design changes that really cleared things up with the lead section. There is a huge difference between precision shooting and modern urban engagements involving multiple targets advancing at unknown ranges. It's referred to as a target rich environment. In situations like that there is no time to run data or even dial turrets. A sniper can go through 20 rounds in under a minute! The ACSS HUD also allows for an exact firing solution to be dialed in and is aimed using the center chevron. In our testing nothing has come close to that style of shooting fast on the fly then precision shot requiring all environmental inputs. A sniper must know his DOPE on BDC using mils, wind holds, ranging for 2000-1000-500/ mil . On top of all that he must know his leads at every range for walking jogging and sprinting. That is a lot of info to remember and in modern situations things happen so fast that we needed to design something that keeps their head in the glass not looking at data, out to 800 yards the bdc works like dream. I understand what you guys are after a tight very accurate group at long to extreme long ranges. What we are after is hitting multiple targets at an unknown range and fast. I think the misunderstanding is that we are after 2 different things. In my case you need a Spork to get the job done! Very often teams are over ran and fast on the fly shots are needed to preserve the life of the team and why the SASS was created. In situations like that the spotter using an M4 with acog is providing security and both end up just shooting away at incoming threats.
We tailor made this to fit their needs using .308.
The military is now going to Horus reticle for long to extreme long range shooting. I am not sure how good of an idea that is but its what they are getting into.


I am not sure if you watched the video on the ACSS HUD but it's the best solution to the type of shooting that is required in urban settings.
Have an open mind to it and imagine your self having to take multiple shots at an unknown distance at multiple movers with a .308
I get what you guys are saying about long range precision shooting and I agree but for modern fighting this is the best solution and has proven its self in testing over and over again.

http://youtu.be/r0oLPFNWCLE

Here is the father of all this. It's the PSO found in the SVD or Dragonov notice full height ranging and BDC. These things go down 600m on in and BDC is what is needed.

This is in service till this day and is very effective.

The 4X and other low power ACSS are designed for this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCaDqYXslMs

There is no time to mil use a range finder or even think, you simply fit them and shoot.


-Dimitri

[JMP]

Dimitri, I have a 4x ACOG on my AR-10 and a 5-25x on my .308 bolt. Both systems are proven in combat, but for different purposes so I understand what you are saying. The ACSS needs to be housed within an ACOG to make a fair assessment. That is something you say is happening, so you are on the right track. I need clear glass and solid internals before I can use a different optic. Unfortunately, that costs money; you know that.

[postal]

Heck, most of the reticles I shoot have no numbers on them. You just learn the design. But, of course for longer range shooting, you'll want a more exact firing solution. So, you will be using a ballistic calculator, which takes into account many more variables than just wind and gravity.

You will also want to range optronically rather than milling. It simply is not precise enough for longer range targets.

Also, having a lot of stuff on the reticle becomes a tragedy if you are shooting in conjunction with an image intensifier as it's much tougher to see targets in the dark.

Agree with everything you said, the part I enlarged I agree with too, but I feel any serious shooter should know how to range their own targets without a battery for those 'just in case' situations.

Some of the matches have a milling stage to test people on it- no LRF's allowed. The more accurate you mil it, the more accurate your range calc is. Those 1/10's come in handy... They show you how big the target is for size reference.

[JMP]

Agree with everything you said, the part I enlarged I agree with too, but I feel any serious shooter should know how to range their own targets without a battery for those 'just in case' situations.

Some of the matches have a milling stage to test people on it- no LRF's allowed. The more accurate you mil it, the more accurate your range calc is. Those 1/10's come in handy... They show you how big the target is for size reference.

I agree, and that is why milliradian are so easy to use.

tan(1/1000)=0.0010000003~~1/1000.

So, 1 click or 1/10 is 1cm at 100 meters (100 meters * 1/1000)
1 click is 3.60" at 100 yards (3600" * 1/1000)

I'd have absolutely nothing to do with inches and yards except for the fact that most US ranges set at yards.

The nice thing is that 100m/100y = 1.094, so for quick estimation, covert to and from using 10%.

If you think about everything in base 10, radian, the SI unit for angular measure really eliminates the need for any "math calculations". It should be automatic. I believe there is a lot of confusion over the system since the US Army and NATO incorrectly redefined this measure.

Pick a reticle you like, and stick with it. That is my belief, and if you learn with a traditional German style reticle, adding more stuff isn't an issue to pick up. All you need is a cross with hashmarks. There are a lot of good entry level scopes by companies like Vortex or SWFA that have this. Later, you can add some refining features to assist. After you learn, if you find something like a fancy pants Horus reticle the thing for you, that's fine. It's too much crap for me.

For good range estimation skills with a scope, I suggest the following 10 things:
1. Look for scope with clear glass to clearly see your target
2. Look for a scope with crisp reticle hashmarks with perfect subtensions
3. Look for a scope that tracks perfectly and won't break
4. Practice
5. Practice
6. Practice
7. Practice
8. Practice
9. Practice
10. Practice