Why no Readymade Featureless AR's?

[kotton]

You still don't seem to fully understand the laws regarding standard-capacity magazines.

Well i just quoted what both of you said without adding anything to it. Either way its not a great selling point, considering the average joe would want a hi-cap mag then and there instead of being told to do some due diligence in order to obtain one.

I'm also not sure why you seem to think that a muzzle brake is somehow a negative

It's also kind of funny to think you "need" a collapsible stock that you'll most likely leave at one position except to maybe get the rifle shorter to fit into a bag.

I never said a MB was negative, and like I already stated theres a 9" height difference between me and the other person i shoot the AR with.

[gorenut]

If the AR was supposed to be featureless, it wouldve been a mini-14.

Yes and No.. ultimately I wound up getting a Mini 14 because I like how the M14 looks and also I wanted a rifle that wasn't an AR. I know I could have gone Saiga too. I think the Benelli MR1 is more closely resembling a featureless AR.

Just doing all this reading/research on the my Mini 14 while its still in the 10 day has gotten me insanely envious of AR owners and how much more accessible parts are, not to mention all the plug and play involved. With the Mini 14, seems like I have to make more permanent adjustments to add something. I know there are after market stocks, but they all go too far into the "tacticool" route.

I'd love to see an AR that was built from the ground up to have a traditional rifle stock. The Benelli MR1 is cool, but it costs too much and still isn't as customizable as ARs or compatible with as many aftermarket parts.

[Kestryll]

Mini-14's can be modded a bit to improve them...

[Merc1138]

Yes and No.. ultimately I wound up getting a Mini 14 because I like how the M14 looks and also I wanted a rifle that wasn't an AR. I know I could have gone Saiga too. I think the Benelli MR1 is more closely resembling a featureless AR.

Just doing all this reading/research on the my Mini 14 while its still in the 10 day has gotten me insanely envious of AR owners and how much more accessible parts are, not to mention all the plug and play involved. With the Mini 14, seems like I have to make more permanent adjustments to add something. I know there are after market stocks, but they all go too far into the "tacticool" route.

I'd love to see an AR that was built from the ground up to have a traditional rifle stock. The Benelli MR1 is cool, but it costs too much and still isn't as customizable as ARs or compatible with as many aftermarket parts.

Wouldn't happen for a few reasons.

1. You'd need to go gas piston(driving the cost up), or no matter what you do, you'll have a buffer tube sticking out of the back of it.

2. Very low nation-wide demand(driving the cost up).

3. Because you'd make it a gas piston system, on a proprietary lower receiver and stock, also requiring lower profile sights(a traditional stock would bring the receiver higher, instead of everything being in line), a lot of your accessories that are available for an ar-15 go right out the window(grips, sights, a lot of gas blocks, stocks).

There actually was an odd looking CA legal "traditional stock" type lower in the works, but it never got off the ground. The website is here: http://blackstararms.com/punbb/ You can see that there is a lot of changes required for such a thing to happen.

[gorenut]

Mini-14's can be modded a bit to improve them...

Yup, I'm planning to do some of these mods. I'm going to tap the bottom to accept a rail as well. My point is though, they're more permanent mods rather than the AR having so much interchangeability. I suppose at the end, as long as you're happy with the mods, it really doesn't matter, especially if you never plan to sell. I know there are also aftermarket stocks, but most of them stray the Mini from being featureless. Great looking Mini btw. I really wanted to add an Acc-strut to my Mini just on looks alone, but I have a Mini 14 Target so there really wouldn't be much of a performance increase. Plus I think the only company that makes struts for the Mini 14 is Har Bar, they run around $150. Also, I've asked the 2 other makers of the struts and they essentially said they never made plans to produce one for the Target model simply because there is no need for one.

Wouldn't happen for a few reasons.

1. You'd need to go gas piston(driving the cost up), or no matter what you do, you'll have a buffer tube sticking out of the back of it.

2. Very low nation-wide demand(driving the cost up).

3. Because you'd make it a gas piston system, on a proprietary lower receiver and stock, also requiring lower profile sights(a traditional stock would bring the receiver higher, instead of everything being in line), a lot of your accessories that are available for an ar-15 go right out the window(grips, sights, a lot of gas blocks, stocks).

There actually was an odd looking CA legal "traditional stock" type lower in the works, but it never got off the ground. The website is here: http://blackstararms.com/punbb/ You can see that there is a lot of changes required for such a thing to happen.

Good info. That stock looks like it could have been promising. Definitely need some re-design around the trigger area. Shame its gonna stay unfinished business.

[stix213]

I think when it comes down to it, a featureless AR is kinda an expert's gun. Meaning you have to be very knowledgeable of the laws, etc. The same type of person who may prefer to just assemble their own AR anyway.

BB'd AR's are easier for noobs to understand, so a much bigger market. You can do almost anything to them just keeping the bullet button and 10 round mags.

Can you please post us some links to buy some 10+ mags for all of us that dont have pre-ban hi caps? If you do then I might think about converting it later on down the road.

10 rounds of .50 equals a lot of .223

http://www.fortune3.com/alexarms/Magazines-10-Round_.50_Beowulf_Magazines.html

[sharxbyte]

You are both correct.

It is NOT illegal to possess hicap magazines.

It IS illegal to "get" hicap magazines in California. You can't buy them, you can't make them, you can't import them, and you cannot even inherit them from family members upon death. You either have them and have had them for 12 years, or you don't.

-W

well... TECHNICALLY, if you FOUND one, it would not violate any of the above circumstances... >.< doubt I'll EVER find one though =[


Edit: I did a search and apparently there's been a few debates about the legality of buying mags, selling mags, etc. No one could find in the letter of the law a prohibition of BUYING Standard cap mags, even if that WAS the intent of lawmakers. It doesn't say it in the actual legislation as far as I'm aware, but under the DOJ FAQ, I found this:

If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?
No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

Was it ever decided whether it's technically illegal for an FFL to sell standard cap mags to Joe Q. Public?




Another edit: Found this in another thread in response to the FAQ

That's FUD! It's illegal to keep for sale, not buy.

[sd_shooter]

If you can't figure out how someone might have acquired a large capacity magazine without manufacturing, importing, or purchasing it, we can't help you(or give you any ideas for a silly excuse to explain how you got them). It does happen. Not to mention, there are people who can indeed buy large capacity magazines(LEO being one example)

Exactly. Do your due diligence, kotton.

What's the secret? I suppose one could "find" one in the desert, left by someone else who "forgot" it.

Heh, or perhaps there's a weapons cache buried somewhere:
(From Terminator 2)

[Moonshine]

My take on why stores don't sell featureless is because the bullet button has both case law and a letter from the DOJ that demonstrate there is no question about its legality. When someone is arrested with a featureless build and makes case law that it's just as lawful I think well see more in stores. However when stores are already packed full of ar-15s and nearly every ar-15 online is sold to a California resident it seems obvious to me this isn't as high on the DOJ radar as it once was.

[Brown Rock]

Cause they look like siht.

I'm going with this.

[El Gato]

Nice rifle!

Most of the people who complain about ergonomics of featureless haven't even tried it.

There are way too many videos of people in competition and training classes with featureless rifles moving around efficiently and kicking arse for that to even be an issue.

My feelings exactly!

everytime I put on a rifle class, I try to set a stage where they have to shoot a "battlefield pickup" rifle...it's always one of my featureless rifles...usually an AK...there are always a few who "convert" after class...

[Brown Rock]

Just doing all this reading/research on the my Mini 14 while its still in the 10 day has gotten me insanely envious of AR owners and how much more accessible parts are, not to mention all the plug and play involved. With the Mini 14, seems like I have to make more permanent adjustments to add something. I know there are after market stocks, but they all go too far into the "tacticool" route.

This is why I got rid of my Mini 14 and went with an AR. So many parts are available for the AR. If you're AR breaks down (broken bolt, firing pin, or extractor) you can get those parts pretty easy and just install them yourself. No so with the Mini 14.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruger-mini-14-mini-30/73023-glend-arms-firing-pin-fitting-why.html

[chead]

I have one AK that's featureless and the other with a bullet button. I might grab the featureless if I needed to defend myself but frankly if I need 30 rounds and the ability to swap mags quickly something really bad is going down. On the other hand our laws are garbage and I shouldn't have to make that choice in the first place.