answered

[ke6guj]

Right going back to my original post



I was trying to get this guy to answer the question.



Because I know the 921 definition of a rifle. I wanted to see if this guy knew the answer.

Like I said these are DROSed in CA as "Long Guns".

CA is the only state that has this stupid DROS system and CA dealers are forced to DROS these as "Long Guns" because they are not on the roster of handguns approved for sale in CA so they can't be DROSed as such.

Which also brings me back to my first post.

If buy CA law these have to be DROSed as "Long Guns" and you only need to be 18 years old to buy a "Long Gun" why can't someone who is 19 years old buy one?

because even though CA says it is a long gun, federally, it is considered an "other" and is not a rifle or shotgun. federal law says you have to be 21 to transfer ANY firearm through a dealer, except for a rifle or shotgun where you can be 18. A stripped lower is NOT a rifle or shotgun, so you don't get to use the rifle/shotgun exemption to the 21-year old requirement.

[CSACANNONEER]

In other states that might be a problem because someone can buy any AR lower and build a pistol out of it.

Because of CA DROS rules these lowers are sold as "long guns" and you only need to 18 years old to buy a long gun.

No, you are wrong. It is illegal on a Federal level to sell a stripped receiver to
anyone under 21. Ca's DROS really has nothing to do with it. In fact, ATF doesn't give a damn if a receiver is DROSed as a long gun, handgun or dildo weilding gazzelle. It is still a stripped receiver under the law.

This guy is making an 80% for instance because he is under 21

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...stripped+lower

So what? It's not illegal for a 2 year old to make a long gun from an 80% lower nor is it illegal for an 18 year old to manufacture their own firearm. The fact is that it is illegal for anyone under 18 to purchase a long gun and, it is illegal for anyone under 21 to purchase a stripped receiver or any firearm other than a long gun.

Quick question, I was skimming that thread and wondering If it was legal to buy an 80% lower and take it to a gunsmith to do the hard work. :P

Sure, but once you find an 07FFL who can legally do this for you, he/she could not return it to you without DROSing it to you. If you are not 21, you're back where you started and out a ton of money.

Some FFLs will over look age...some will not. Go talk to some FFLs.

I doubt that there are any FFLs who are willing to break the law and risk loosing their bussiness just to make a couple of dollars on a stripped lower.

Some rifles do NOT have a butt stock (ie tactical shotguns with just a pistol grip)

But installing a stock on a pistol would constitute construction of an assault weapon (SBR) as most pistols have a barrel length that measures under 16"

Please provide an example of a weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder which does not have a buttstock on it.

I disagree, but I understand why you think that.

A stock is ONE WAY to design a firearm to be fired from the shoulder, any designed way to fire from a shouldered position = rifle.

Technically, this is correct but, can you provide an example that ATF has agrred with?

[morrcarr67]

because even though CA says it is a long gun, federally, it is considered an "other" and is not a rifle or shotgun. federal law says you have to be 21 to transfer ANY firearm through a dealer, except for a rifle or shotgun where you can be 18. A stripped lower is NOT a rifle or shotgun, so you don't get to use the rifle/shotgun exemption to the 21-year old requirement.

Thanks Jack

[rojocorsa]

Bull**** California laws are so confusing, I hate them.

I made a thread about this very subject when I wanted a DD or a BCM. The consensus is that if you're not 21, it's a no-go on even a complete lower (at least that's what I got out of my thread).

So I said f_ck it, I'm getting an nice AK instead. Either an Arsenal SGL or an SJgunguy build, I'm not exactly sure which one...


Oh yeah, from that thread I also learned that if I wanted to buy something like an NDS receiver, that I couldn't do that either unless I were 21. I'm not planning on building my first AK, but I guess I would have taken the traditional pre-drilled flat and Romy G kit path...






Are stripped and complete* lowers legally considered the same thing?


*One with a rifle stock.

[CSACANNONEER]

Bull**** California laws are so confusing, I hate them.

You seem more confused than anything. California laws are not in question here. This is about Federal law.

[UNDFTD]

Bummer you have to wait that long. What was your over all cost going to be? When I was loooking I found 80% lowers for 50-60bucks and someone with a CNC mill who was going to charge me (i think) $100 a pop... that was for 3 though so it could have been a deal on quantity. Either way, my projected cost was going to be about $150-$160 a lower, not bad considering I spent $120 on my stag and spikes.

Looks like it's gonna cost $250 for the milling adapters/jig/lower.

+ Cost of gunsmith help/tools

Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html

[CSACANNONEER]

Looks like it's gonna cost $250 for the milling adapters/jig/lower.

+ Cost of gunsmith help/tools

Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html

Don't forget the fact that, if an 07FFL does the work, it will need to be DROSed to you and that can't happen unless it is a complete rifle or you are over 21.

[rojocorsa]

You seem more confused than anything. California laws are not in question here. This is about Federal law.

I am pretty confused. Thanks for clarifying that this is a federal matter though. At the end of the day, living in California doesn't help anything. I am slowly coming to terms with the reality of mag laws here.

Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

Seems like too much trouble for a single lower. Unless you want a bunch of them if you can find access to a machine. But like CSA said, if it's an 07 FFL, it would be pointless anyway.

At this point, I'd just get a quality complete rifle and spend the rest on ammo.

[dieselpower]

2 things CSACannoneer,
1) There have been SEVERAL guys on this website who posted they bought a stripped lower from a gun shop and are under 21.

2) The law says shouldered...doesnt say equipped with a stock. while I can not link or even know of something that fits that bill...that doesn't stop the law. You design a buffer tube with a rubber stop on the end and while its not a stock is designed to ease the recoil into the shoulder therefore its meets the legal 921 definition of a rifle...and if the barrel is shorter than 16"....

[ke6guj]

2 things CSACannoneer,
1) There have been SEVERAL guys on this website who posted they bought a stripped lower from a gun shop and are under 21.

just because their FFL is not up to speed on ATF's position on the matter does not make it legal. If a CG'er finds an FFL that is breaking the law by selling stripped lowers to those under 21, good for the CG'er, but don't plan on it. And there could be future drama for that <21-buyer when ATF audits the FFL.

2) The law says shouldered...doesnt say equipped with a stock. while I can not link or even know of something that fits that bill...that doesn't stop the law. You design a buffer tube with a rubber stop on the end and while its not a stock is designed to ease the recoil into the shoulder therefore its meets the legal 921 definition of a rifle...and if the barrel is shorter than 16"....

the actual federal definition of a rifle is as follows:

Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

ATF has said that installing a cane tip to the end of a pistol buffer tube on a pistol does not make it an SBR.

[rareair]

At the end of the day, living in California doesn't help anything. I am slowly coming to terms with the reality of mag laws here.

California isn't the worst when it comes to firearm ownership. Check the laws in Hawaii & New York. Those States, and others, are more strict. Grass isn't always Greener on the other side

[morrcarr67]

California isn't the worst when it comes to firearm ownership. Check the laws in Hawaii & New York. Those States, and others, are more strict. Grass isn't always Greener on the other side

Don't forget Massachusetts. They have a pistol roster of sorts too.

[dieselpower]

Don't forget Massachusetts. They have a pistol roster of sorts too.

I think you are allowed to build your own silencer in Massachusetts though... so it balances out. LOL I could be wrong, I know its one of those North Eastern States

[CSACANNONEER]

2 things CSACannoneer,
1) There have been SEVERAL guys on this website who posted they bought a stripped lower from a gun shop and are under 21.

2) The law says shouldered...doesnt say equipped with a stock. while I can not link or even know of something that fits that bill...that doesn't stop the law. You design a buffer tube with a rubber stop on the end and while its not a stock is designed to ease the recoil into the shoulder therefore its meets the legal 921 definition of a rifle...and if the barrel is shorter than 16"....

A few years ago, it was common practise to sell stripped receivers to those under 21. Then, ATF put a stop to it. If there are still FFLs doing this, they are at risk of loosing their license, livelyhood and possibly even their freedom. But, I'm not saying that it's not possible for a FFL to be that stupid. Maybe, the one(s) you know of, who are doing this, have been married as long as fjoid.

Now, please explain to me just how putting a piece of rubber on a buffer tube would make it into a "rifle". Obviously, ATF has a different opinion. Not only is their opinion in writting, it also holds a lot more legal weight than yours or mine does. I'm still trying to come up with an idea of how something can be "designed to be fired from the shoulder" and yet, not have a stock (I would call anything designed to be pressed against a shoulder a "stock") on it.

[CSACANNONEER]

I think you are allowed to build your own silencer in Massachusetts though... so it balances out. LOL I could be wrong, I know its one of those North Eastern States

LOL. Mass is not a surpressor friendly state at all.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showpost.php?p=6489138&postcount=33