answered

[bwiese]

A few years ago, it was common practise to sell stripped receivers to those under 21. Then, ATF put a stop to it. If there are still FFLs doing this, they are at risk of loosing their license, livelyhood and possibly even their freedom. But, I'm not saying that it's not possible for a FFL to be that stupid.

Yup.

BATF issued clarifications in their FFL Newsletters at end of 99 and beginning of 2000 clarifying this.

GCA '68 has exemptions for *rifles* and *shotguns* to be sold to those 18 to 21 yrs old.

A lower is not a rifle or a shotgun. Especially good examples are the Rem 870/Mossy 500 'cruiser'- style shotguns equipped with pistol grips only: those are not sellable to those btwn 18 and 21 *unless* a buttstock is attached or sold in the package with the gun.

[r6raff]

Looks like it's gonna cost $250 for the milling adapters/jig/lower.

+ Cost of gunsmith help/tools

Trying to decide if its worth the time/money...

http://www.cncguns.com/tooling.html

It would be foolish to buy all that to make 1 lower, find someone who has access to a mill and pay them for you to push the button. I don't know where you live but if your in northern California then contact Seems, I know, at least last year, he was able to do this for me, I think he was near Sac. If you plan on making multiple or hosting build parties then go for it, but for 1, it would seem rather illogical compared to just buying a complete rifle from the market place or a retailer

So what? It's not illegal for a 2 year old to make a long gun from an 80% lower nor is it illegal for an 18 year old to manufacture their own firearm. The fact is that it is illegal for anyone under 18 to purchase a long gun and, it is illegal for anyone under 21 to purchase a stripped receiver or any firearm other than a long gun.

What was the point of this reply? This info was already known. Just curious at what I am suppose to draw from this post.

[CSACANNONEER]

Whoops, no one has mentioned the simplest and cheapest ways for the OP to obtain a stripped lower. The first one is super simple, just have a parent buy it and give it to you. No other paperwork is required. The second one is a litle more complicated and expensive. First, have a friend (obviously over 21) buy a stripped lower. Then, after the lower is in his/her possession, you provide all the parts and help assemble it into a rifle. Now, go back to a FFL and do a PPT into your name. It's that simple and it's not a straw purchase as long as the friend is really buying it for him/her to learn how to assemble one and then sell it later. Or, the friend could even legally buy it with the intention of building a rifle and giving it to you (you could be nice and give him/her cash in return). Of course, even a gift would need to be properly PPTed to you. There is nothing illegal about buying a firearm with the intention of it becoming a gift as long as the receiving party is not a prohibited person and all laws are followed. Again, in Ca, this means either an intrafamiluar transfer or a gift which has to be PPTed.

What was the point of this reply? This info was already known. Just curious at what I am suppose to draw from this post.

First, it adds to your post by helping to clarify legality of manufacturing one's own firearm and at what age one can manufacture what. Secondly, it again answers the OP's question about purchasing a stripped lower from a FFL which, your post didn't. Obviously, the OP did not already know any of this info. If he had, he would not be asking about it.

[r6raff]

First, it adds to your post by helping to clarify legality of manufacturing one's own firearm and at what age one can manufacture what. Secondly, it again answers the OP's question about purchasing a stripped lower from a FFL which, your post didn't. Obviously, the OP did not already know any of this info. If he had, he would not be asking about it.

Actually I answered his question in my previous post, maybe you missed it... What you quoted was just an example of what searching can produce. I didn't feel the necessity of educating him on the history or manufacturing. His question was simple and so was the answer.

Question: Can I buy a stripped lower under the age of 21?

Answer: No, but you can build one. Doesn't take 1 and half pages to figure that out.

Good call on the parent gifting it loop hole, or the friend building and then selling it to him complete. You should have mentioned it sooner though, but maybe it slipped your mind as well, as most people don't have a need to regularly circumvent the system like that, it therefor is not the first thing to pops in one's head.

[CSACANNONEER]

Good call on the parent gifting it loop hole, or the friend building and then selling it to him complete. You should have mentioned it sooner though, but maybe it slipped your mind as well, as most people don't have a need to regularly circumvent the system like that, it therefor is not the first thing to pop in ones head.

Yep, both meathods slipped my mind until I was responding to your post. Anyway, I definately do not think either meathod is a loop hole nor a way to circumvent the system. Both meathods have been legal for many years and even when "they" started putting age restrictions on purchasing, "they" intentionally left the age of owning, possessing, manufacturing, etc. out of the mix.

[r6raff]

Yep, both meathods slipped my mind until I was responding to your post. Anyway, I definately do not think either meathod is a loop hole nor a way to circumvent the system. Both meathods have been legal for many years and even when "they" started putting age restrictions on purchasing, "they" intentionally left the age of owning, possessing, manufacturing, etc. out of the mix.

Yea, both ways are perfectly legal, when I saw loophole/circumvent it was in regards to the fact that the goal is the same, while using alternative methods rather than what would normally be done. Either way, both methods would be far easier and cheaper opposed to the 80% lower, unless you have great access and a desire to do so.

[762.DEFENSE]

Umm... unless they changed it recently (like the last month) Lowers are listed as Other and have a minimum age requirement of 21.

This has been discussed numerous times, search and you will see

This.

You need to be 21 to purchase a Lower in CA.

/thread.

[Cokebottle]

as far as i know, no...my brother is 19 and getting ready to buy his first .223 lower

His FFL will get spanked on an audit if he does it.

[Cokebottle]

Also, you can build a pistol in CA I believe, singleshot exemption. I think thats one of the reasons lowers are listed as Other, because they can be either. Don;t quote me on the pistol stuff, im not to privy on that info.

The problem is, you cannot single shot a stripped lower.

You can build a pistol from an 80% lower (it must be single shot at completion, may then be converted to semi-auto), or you can single-shot the purchase of a completed AR/AK pistol.

You cannot single-shot a stripped lower because it is not dimensionally compliant... minimum barrel length 6", minimum OAL 10.5"
If it has no barrel, there's no way to single shot it.

[dieselpower]

{snip}
Now, please explain to me just how putting a piece of rubber on a buffer tube would make it into a "rifle". Obviously, ATF has a different opinion. Not only is their opinion in writting, it also holds a lot more legal weight than yours or mine does. I'm still trying to come up with an idea of how something can be "designed to be fired from the shoulder" and yet, not have a stock (I would call anything designed to be pressed against a shoulder a "stock") on it.

I have nothing for you other than it doesn't say "stock". The law is,

The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger

.

what a letter from the BATFE or Jesus Christ does for you in court... if a DA comes after you.... is your good deal...thats not the law. A "stock" is not needed for something to be a defined rifle.

[Cokebottle]

Or he can be there the entire time and push start on the CNC machine, leave that day and put whatever he wants on the receiver

Questionably legal.

One shop was busted for doing this a few years ago.
Now the catch... they were an 01FFL. Their reading of the law was that as long as they did not do the machine work, they were GTG.
The BATFE's reading of the law was that they allowed manufacturing to take place on their premises, it didn't matter whether the person pushing the button was a paid employee or not.

Some rifles do NOT have a butt stock (ie tactical shotguns with just a pistol grip)

Those are written up on the 4473 as "other" and may not be transferred to a person under 21.

No I'm not building an 80% anymore. The cost of building a 80% is way more than buying a stripped lower for starters (and also that under 21 problem). Norse Armory said he can build me a complete rifle so I'm going that route. Not sure when exactly I'm going to do it but it will be within a few months.

Smart way to go.

With stripped lowers (and completed builds) being so "cheap" (compared to 2008), there are only three reasons to build from an 80% today:
1 - You want a pistol (completed pistols are still fairly expensive)
2 - You want to build a true M4 clone with a 14.5" barrel and pinned muzzle device, and want to do the build yourself. You must have a lower that can legally be built into a pistol in order to legally take possession of the short barrel.
3 - You proudly wear your and want to have a 100% paperless gun.

Ok. Let's go back to my original statement. I said that these were DROSed as a "Long Gun" and the other guy said that long guns have to have stocks on them. I said I thought "rifles" need to have stocks on them.

Now you are bringing "shotguns" into the question.

On the federal 4473's AR frames are listed as "Other". On the state DROS they are listed as "Long Guns".

Keep in mind all rifles and shotguns are "long guns"; but, not all "Long Guns" are rifles or shotguns.

That is a catch-22 of the California DROS software not matching the 4473.

In California, if it is not on the roster, or if it is not roster exempt, it MUST be listed as "long gun"
Per BATFE, if it does not have BOTH a buttstock and a barrel at least 16" long, it must be listed as "handgun" or "other"

So yes... it must have a buttstock AND a barrel at least 16" long to be listed on the 4473 as "rifle", which means that if it does not, it cannot be transferred to anyone under 21.
That's not California law... that is Federal. An 18 year old in Arizona cannot legally purchase a stripped lower.

If buy CA law these have to be DROSed as "Long Guns" and you only need to be 18 years old to buy a "Long Gun" why can't someone who is 19 years old buy one?

For the same reason that the California Safe Affidavit is valid for long gun purchases but not for handgun purchases.
Federal law says you have to be 21 to buy anything other than a "rifle"
Federal law says that all handguns shall be furnished with a child-safe lock.
Federal law does not recognize the California Safe Affidavit, and Federal law doesn't care if the California DROS software calls a stripped lower a "banana"... the 4473 calls it "other" and you have to be 21 to receive it.

[CSACANNONEER]

Cokebottle,

Go back and find the post were I gave the OP an additional two ways for someone under 21 to legally aquire a commercially produced lower.

what a letter from the BATFE or Jesus Christ does for you in court... if a DA comes after you.... is your good deal...thats not the law. A "stock" is not needed for something to be a defined rifle.

I agree but, I still can't imagine how to design something that is designed to be fired from the shoulder and does not meet any definition of "stock". Even your idea about a buffer tube with a rubber stopper on it could fit most, if not all, definitions of "butt stock".

[dieselpower]

Cokebottle,

Go back and find the post were I gave the OP an additional two ways for someone under 21 to legally aquire a commercially produced lower.



I agree but, I still can't imagine how to design something that is designed to be fired from the shoulder and does not meet any definition of "stock". Even your idea about a buffer tube with a rubber stopper on it could fit most, if not all, definitions of "butt stock".

and the AG and DoJ had no clue what a Bullet Button would be either....LOL

[CSACANNONEER]

and the AG and DoJ had no clue what a Bullet Button would be either....LOL

Yep, that's why I'm asking for an example.

BTW, I find it interesting that almost everyone here now incorrectly refers to all mag locks as BBs and, no one seems to use the term "magazine lock" anymore. But, that's another rant for another time.

[Cokebottle]

Are stripped and complete* lowers legally considered the same thing?


*One with a rifle stock.

The rifle must have BOTH a buttstock and a barrel at least 16" in length for it to be considered a "rifle" on the 4473 and be transferrable to someone under 21.