AR lower question

[rugershooter]

I've heard that people under 21 cannot buy a stripped lower. Is that true?
How about a lower with the LPK already installed? I'm looking into something like this

http://www.tacticalmachining.com/products.php?pid=92#images/490_345_lower_w_pk.jpg

[i1800collect]

I've heard that people under 21 cannot buy a stripped lower. Is that true?
How about a lower with the LPK already installed? I'm looking into something like this
http://www.tacticalmachining.com/pro...lower_w_pk.jpg

You must be 21+y/o to purchase a stripped lower or a lower with a LPK installed. You can purchase a "complete lower" with a shoulder stock installed when you're 18y/o since that would be considered a long gun.

[ParallaxTactical.com]

As far as I know even a lower with a stock installed is considered a receiver, not a rifle.

[i1800collect]

As far as I know even a lower with a stock installed is considered a receiver, not a rifle.

My understanding was that per federal law a rifle or shotgun is a "shoulder fired weapon". Therefore a completed lower assembly with a shoulder stock would be considered a rifle.

[ParallaxTactical.com]

If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun) it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or long gun. However they are still firearms by definition and subject to the same GCA limitations as any other firearm. See section 921(a)(3)(b).
18 USC section 922(b)(1) makes it unlawful for a licensee to sell any firearm other than a shotgun of rifle to any person under 21.
Since a frame or receiver for a firearm to include one that can only be made into a long gun, is a "firearm other than a shotgun or a rifle" it cannot be transferred to anyone under the age of 21.

See section B, Question 18 on the ATF 4473 form.

[i1800collect]

See section B, Question 18 on the ATF 4473 form.

Right. That part of the 4473 form refers to "frames and receivers", or what we commonly refer to as bare/stripped frames and receivers.

My understanding is that once a lower receiver has a buttstock installed (and to be safe, assembled with a LPK), it is considered a "rifle" and no longer a "receiver" and the part of the 4473 form you quoted would no longer apply.

Here is a thread from a while back discussing this exact topic: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=127606

[oogabooga]

See section B, Question 18 on the ATF 4473 form.

I believe this is referring to stripped receivers (aka. no LPK, no buttstock, no upper assembly). If there is a buttstock attached to an AR receiver, it is considered a long gun as confirmed by multiple FFL's and their ATF agents when the new 4473 came about:

Our ATF guys in TX said that if it has a RIFLE buttstock.....it's a rifle....

I had my local ATF agent in the shop yesterday and she confirmed to me that I could DROS a completed lower assembly with buttstock as a long gun to someone under 21. This has already been confirmed by at least one other CA dealer as well. There are a couple threads about this topic already.

My ATF agent stated that she talked to corporate and they said lowers with buttstocks are rifles and under 21 can buy.

So I called Irvington Arms today at 1pm, and the ATF rep. said that since the complete lower assembly will start out as a rifle, it is considered a complete rifle for all legal purposes. This is good news for all of us under 21 who want to purchase OLLs, but don't want a complete rifle just yet!

All above quotes originating from here.

To the OP, it isn't the LPK that makes it available for purchase to 18-20 year olds, it's the buttstock. So the receiver you linked does not count as a long gun. You would have to buy something like this.

[ParallaxTactical.com]

Please see the part about: "If a frame or receiver can only be made into a long gun (rifle or shotgun). it is still a frame or receiver not a handgun or a long gun."

Can someone quote law or admin ruling on this issue?

[wildhawker]

Under 21 requires the purchase of a fully-functional rifle or shotgun. Anything else would be 21+.

A receiver with a buttstock (and no barrel/upper, incapable of firing) is not a rifle per ATF; California disposition is less certain although we are investigating.

[tenpercentfirearms]

I believe this is referring to stripped receivers (aka. no LPK, no buttstock, no upper assembly). If there is a buttstock attached to an AR receiver, it is considered a long gun as confirmed by multiple FFL's and their ATF agents when the new 4473 came about:

All above quotes originating from here.

To the OP, it isn't the LPK that makes it available for purchase to 18-20 year olds, it's the buttstock. So the receiver you linked does not count as a long gun. You would have to buy something like this.

The above is old info. Below is thread with new info.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=271010&highlight=rifle

So this morning I had a nice long phone discussion with James at the local (OC) ATF field office about AR lower receivers. Specifically, complete lower receivers with buttstocks installed and how they must be recorded and transferred.

First off, a complete lower receiver which has a buttstock *DOES NOT* meet the definition of a rifle or a shotgun, and MUST be transferred on the 4473 as an "other firearm" of type "receiver".

Second, because complete lower receivers are not rifles or shotguns, they CAN NOT be transferred to someone under the age of 21. A buttstock does not a rifle make, and you can't just slap a buttstock onto a lower and transfer it to an 18-20 year old.

Third, because a complete lower receiver with a buttstock installed is not a rifle or a shotgun, it MAY be used in the construction of a pistol. This was the most surprising to me. Obviously, you must remove the buttstock first and replace it with something like a pistol buffer tube, or buffer tower plug. But the buttstock DOES NOT negate the possibility of building a pistol[*]

This last part was the most surprising to me, since the ATF has always held the position of anything with a buttstock cannot be made into a pistol. Ever. In truth, I was actually hoping to catch the ATF in a small hypocrisy, for if they told me you can't make a pistol from a receiver that has a buttstock, then that would mean they would maintain that the receiver with a buttstock is indeed a rifle/shotgun and so what would be their reasoning for not allowing the transfer to an 18-20yo.

So, want an LMT pistol? It can be done




[*] = PLEASE remember that due to CA's DROS system confusing the issue, it may not be legal to build a pistol on even a stripped lower receiver due to receivers being DROS'ed as "long guns", with no way to DROS them as pistols at this time.

UPDATE - 3/29/2010: The letter came! LMT defender pistols, anyone?

[i1800collect]

The above is old info. Below is thread with new info.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...ighlight=rifle

Thank you for clearing this up. I, too, was going by the old interpretation; I had no idea this letter existed.

[rugershooter]

Ok, thanks guys. So to be clear, I can't but it unless I buy the complete rifle?
That sucks, I had the money all saved up too

[ParallaxTactical.com]

Yes, summary is without buying a complete rifle you are out of luck. See if a dealer will buy back an upper if your purchase a complete rifle.

[i1800collect]

Another option would be an intrafamilial transfer of a stripped OLL, since there's no age restriction except when dealing with handguns.

[tenpercentfirearms]

Yes, summary is without buying a complete rifle you are out of luck. See if a dealer will buy back an upper if your purchase a complete rifle.

I have done this before too. Sold the kid a complete rifle then bought his upper back off of him. Then a few months later he came back and bought the upper back off of me.