ATF: Complete lower receivers with buttstocks can be utilized for pistol builds.

[CHS]

So this morning I had a nice long phone discussion with James at the local (OC) ATF field office about AR lower receivers. Specifically, complete lower receivers with buttstocks installed and how they must be recorded and transferred.

First off, a complete lower receiver which has a buttstock *DOES NOT* meet the definition of a rifle or a shotgun, and MUST be transferred on the 4473 as an "other firearm" of type "receiver".

Second, because complete lower receivers are not rifles or shotguns, they CAN NOT be transferred to someone under the age of 21. A buttstock does not a rifle make, and you can't just slap a buttstock onto a lower and transfer it to an 18-20 year old.

Third, because a complete lower receiver with a buttstock installed is not a rifle or a shotgun, it MAY be used in the construction of a pistol. This was the most surprising to me. Obviously, you must remove the buttstock first and replace it with something like a pistol buffer tube, or buffer tower plug. But the buttstock DOES NOT negate the possibility of building a pistol[*]

This last part was the most surprising to me, since the ATF has always held the position of anything with a buttstock cannot be made into a pistol. Ever. In truth, I was actually hoping to catch the ATF in a small hypocrisy, for if they told me you can't make a pistol from a receiver that has a buttstock, then that would mean they would maintain that the receiver with a buttstock is indeed a rifle/shotgun and so what would be their reasoning for not allowing the transfer to an 18-20yo.

So, want an LMT pistol? It can be done




[*] = PLEASE remember that due to CA's DROS system confusing the issue, it may not be legal to build a pistol on even a stripped lower receiver due to receivers being DROS'ed as "long guns", with no way to DROS them as pistols at this time.

UPDATE - 3/29/2010: The letter came! LMT defender pistols, anyone?

[tgriffin]

Interesting... I'd follow this up with a letter asking the agent to put your convo in writing... That would be a nice letter to have in the CGF files.

[CHS]

Interesting... I'd follow this up with a letter asking the agent to put your convo in writing...

It actually makes sense, since a "rifle" is defined by the ATF as something that fires a projectile through a rifled bore and is designed to be fired from the shoulder.

If it doesn't have a rifled bore (and without an upper, a lower doesn't), then it's not a rifle. Makes perfect sense. If it's not a rifle, it doesn't matter whether or not it has a buttstock.

[CSACANNONEER]

[*] = PLEASE remember that due to CA's DROS system confusing the issue, it may not be legal to build a pistol on even a stripped lower receiver due to receivers being DROS'ed as "long guns", with no way to DROS them as pistols at this time.

So? Since you either need an manufacturing license to assemble a lower or, you need to be doing it for yourself, wouldn't it be similar to a home build? Could you build a stripped lower into a single shot pistol just like you could if you built up an 80% lower?

On a Federal level, you are saying that ATF has declared that any stripped lower can be made into a pistol (assuming that it was never a rifle)? Do you have any documentation of this? Can you get him to send you something in writing?

[CHS]

On a Federal level, you are saying that ATF has declared that any stripped lower can be made into a pistol (assuming that it was never a rifle)? Do you have any documentation of this? Can you get him to send you something in writing?

That letter has been circulating already for a few months, and has pretty much always been known to most manufacturers. A virgin frame is a virgin frame and can be built into any type of Type 1 firearm by an individual.

What was a big surprise to me was that letter would even apply to completed lowers that have buttstocks installed.

[CSACANNONEER]

That letter has been circulating already for a few months, and has pretty much always been known to most manufacturers. A virgin frame is a virgin frame and can be built into any type of Type 1 firearm by an individual.

What was a big surprise to me was that letter would even apply to completed lowers that have buttstocks installed.

Thanks, this is the first I've heard about such a letter. And, YES, the atached stock thing surprises me too!

[ke6guj]

OK, here are the two letters that I've seen on the issue:




note that they do mention that a rifle receiver that has been stocked as a rifle can't be used as a pistol. But there is that "and/or" language that needs to parsed out to determine if a shoulder stock without an upper means that it is a rifle. But, it would appear if they want to claim that a shoulder-stocked receiver is a rifle that can be an SBR, one would think that they would also need to say it is a rifle for terms of transfer to an 18-20 year-old.

also note in the 2004 letter, the only options on the 4473 was "pistol" and "long gun". A "long gun" 4473 did not equal "rifle" unless the receiver was actually described to be a rifle.

[CHS]

UPDATE - 3/29/2010: The letter came! LMT defender pistols, anyone?

[SJgunguy24]

I wonder if this will work wih AK's also? How would he serial #'s work out with DROS? Would you vol reg and send in the form with 19$ and call it good as a home build?

[tenpercentfirearms]

So can people build AR pistols out of long gun DROSed lowers?

Now this brings up another question. Would a 1911 style frame be considered a pistol or a long gun or "other". You could after all put on one of those rifle conversion kits with a buttstock on it and make it a rifle.

So what is the next step to making sure we don't get in trouble with the state?

[CHS]

So can people build AR pistols out of long gun DROSed lowers?

We really don't know.

But someone's working on it

Now this brings up another question. Would a 1911 style frame be considered a pistol or a long gun or "other". You could after all put on one of those rifle conversion kits with a buttstock on it and make it a rifle.

A 1911 frame is just a frame. It's not a handgun or a long gun. The DOJ thinks that it's a "handgun frame" and an AR15 receiver is a "rifle receiver", but there is zero legal difference between the two of them. A 1911 frame would be 4473'ed exactly the same as an AR15 receiver. The "other" box would be checked and the serial number would be described as a "receiver" or "frame", but not pistol, handgun, or rifle.

So what is the next step to making sure we don't get in trouble with the state?

Working on it

[JayBeeJay]

^^^ Thanks for the info man this is some exciting news...not for my wife and the bank account though lol!

[bplvr]

I shall surmise that one would need to have the lower in hand with the buttstock removed prior to taking possession of the pistol upper to avoid a constructive possession problem. The ATF letter is in line with the lower being 4473'd as an "Other" since 1/1/09 ,and until it is assembled it has neither a pistol nor a rifle designation. Would you have to send DOJ a 4100A when you added your pistol upper ?

[Beatone]

Tag for more info.

[Da_shotcaller]

interesting letter. i read the 2 old letter before but this is the first time i read the letter regarding lower with buttsock installed.